Don’t dress like a slut: Toronto cop
Raymond Kwan
Senior Staff
Students and staff at Osgoode Hall Law School are demanding an apology and explanation from the Toronto Police Service after one of their officers suggested women can avoid sexual assault by not dressing like a “slut.”
On Jan. 24, a campus safety information session was held at Osgoode Hall, where members from York security and two male officers from Toronto police 31 Division handed out safety tips to community
members.
Ronda Bessner, who attended the session, remembered being surprised by what the officer suggested to women.
“One of the safety tips was for women not to dress like ‘sluts.’ He said something like, ‘I’ve been told I shouldn’t say this,’ and then he uttered the words,” said Bessner, Osgoode assistant dean of the Juris Doctor Program. “I was shocked and appalled. I made contact with the police [...] and we’ve asked for a written apology and an explanation.”
YFS vice-president Darkshika Selvasivam, who did not attend the session, also expressed shock upon hearing the comments.
“I’m appalled by the comment that the police officer has made saying that women should avoid dressing like sluts, and I think it goes to show the inherent misogyny and lack of education,” said Selvasivam, York Federation of Students (YFS) executive.
“I think the officer should be very seriously reprimanded for the comment.”
After the session, Bessner spoke with students and student organizations and noted they, too, expressed concerns about the comment. Bessner proceeded to call 31 Division to demand an apology and explanation.
“Initially it was a call, and the officer said he would get back to me right away. A couple of days had lapsed, so I sent a letter,” she said.
Toronto police spokesperson Constable Wendy Drummond confirmed the incident has been brought to the attention of senior officials and is currently under investigation.
“[This is] definitely something that we take very seriously. This matter [...] has been brought to the attention of our professional standards unit and is something we will be looking into,” she said.
However, she could not confirm whether Toronto police intend to issue an official apology.
“We are of the position that if these comments were made, it is definitely something that we will [act on],” she added.
Bessner said she has yet to receive an official apology from the officer. She has also spoken to York security and noted that they were also upset by the comments.
“We have a good relationship with the Toronto Police Service and work collaboratively with them,” said Janice Walls, York spokesperson. “However, we were very surprised and shocked by the comment that was made and we certainly don’t agree with it.”
Bessner argued that such comments make it difficult for victims dealing with sexual assault because they make them feel uncomfortable going to the police for help.
“I think the problem with the constable’s conduct was that he was blaming the victim,” she said. “He’s also not making victims feel safe to go to the police. It’s quite astounding that in 2011 that you hear comments like that from a professional.”
Bessner stressed the importance of officers having proper knowledge about sexual assault cases.
“I think it’s really important that the police [...] receive appropriate training on sexual assault, so that statements like this are never made and that they understand the dynamics of sexual assault.”
Related articles:
Cop’s “slut” comment draws backlash from guerrilla activists
SlutWalk Toronto: April 3, 2011
Short URL: http://www.excal.on.ca/?p=5127
> Really, men HAVE to wear those things? You never see men in
> the summer without shirts on? Always in business suits eh?
Try to apply for a bank job in a white (or prefer pink?) T-shirt, 1/2 (or prefer 1/16?) trousers and flip-flops (or prefer high-hells?).
> The same culture that teaches men to be violent against women
This “culture” (“culture” seems to be a synonym of “crap” or “fascism”) teaches the police morons to selectivly hunt for men (preferably additionally black or Arab ones, they “know how the evil looks like”). Also this so-called “male violence against women” is usually (60%? 90%?? 97%??? the full truth is impossible to find out) just false accusation. You know, you (sluts only) can achieve very much by “making yourself a victim” of a, even if a not really happened, crime. Men have to work hard instead, and even then the success is far away for guaranteed.
> There are no buses or trains for only women…
I’m happy to hear that about Toronto. In Japan or India there is such sexistic stuff
What about hospitals, schools, universities, jobs? What about a “slut right of veto”? In Germany, invented by the “Green Party”, this technology has been established in many other parties and organisations too. Also, in Germany and many other European countries, a company will not get any businness from the state (construction work, goods delivery, …) unless they provide a written confirmation that they “don’t discriminate women”. Consider what happens if just 1 person (having the correct sex) says somewhere “I’m being discriminated”. IN DUBIO PRO REO.
> How about we just, oh I don’t know, ARREST AND PUNISH RAPISTS.
Good. But arrest them AFTER committing a crime. Not preventively because you think “this man could commit a crime, let’s prevent it”. And don’t forget to ARREST AND PUNISH THE FEMALE CRIMINALS (false accusation, fraud, defamation, neglection or abuse of childern, …) too.
> Feminism =/= male-suppression
Feminism IS the HATING on men and suppression of anything outside of this silly system of 2 poles (good female and evil male).
@SrCharles
I know a better way: men must make sure they keep a 20 feet distance from women. If they see one nearing, they must move out of their way, eyes to the ground. If, doing so, they accidently bump into another woman, they should be lashed, in public. That’ll do it.
Tell me what is wrong with that solution, compared to the officer’s.
Ooooh, oooh! *raises hand* I know the answer!
There is no difference!
Both solutions are sexist, stupid, and ineffectual. With the cop’s solution, the only result will be sexually repressed women who are still getting raped (and many still raping) and a major draw-back to gender equality. With your solution, we get sexually repressed men who are still getting raped (and many still raping) and a major draw-back to gender equality.
How about we just, oh I don’t know, ARREST AND PUNISH RAPISTS. You know, the obvious answer? That way, both sexes enjoy equal sexual freedom and there is less crime in the world. Or is that just too out-there to be a possibility?
Also, nobody ever men have to be repressed, from either side of the argument. In fact, that’s a completely stupid idea that would destroy the sex/gender equal society we’re trying to achieve. Feminism =/= male-suppression; never has and it never will, regardless of the fact that people think so.
Quote:”You ladies are so quick to scorn the decent men in this world that are simply trying to to PROTECT our sisters and daughters from becoming sexual objects. That is not equal to placing the blame on them, that is protecting them from the pigs that DO see a short skirt and a drunken girl as an invitation.”
That is not true. There were lots of decent men who walked with us last sunday. What that particular policeman said, perpetuates and gives credence to the myth that “she asked for it”. A girl in a short skirt dancing to the music on a dance floor is, “in their minds”, asking to be assaulted. This is why sexual assault is the most unreported crime. This is 2011, it’s time we acknowledge that people’s sex lives are none of our business and everyone has the freedom to wear whatever the hell they want to wear. Perpetrators choose victims who are vulnerable ie. weaker, alone and easy to overpower. Giving tips about having a buddy system are helpful but making judgmental remarks about clothing are not.
How wrong you are. Your magically turning one sentence into another just to appease whatever unfounded sense of righteousness you have inside Ashley.
The cop said the same thing that I would say to my little sister or my daughter before she left the house, nothing more, nothing less. Heaven forbid an adult, who is a cop who sees the shit of this earth everyday gives life advice to a bunch college girls.
No one is making judgement calls. A woman is not a bad person because shes half naked. The cop never said that like you are implying. Being a man myself, I can tell you that a half naked woman is going to get my attention quicker than a fully dressed one would, and I’m sure she would attract the attention of a rapists quicker as well.
Does this mean don’t punish sexual deviants? NO. So stop insinuating that. While your sitting here bashing this cop hes working the beat trying to keep the streets safe for you.
Yes it’s 2011, and everyone can wear what they want. Once again, nobody was putting that into question and far be it from him or I to forbid you from wearing your favourite Boustiere in public. If it makes you feel good about yourself, I’m all for it. But please, don’t bash a good cop for trying to bring to light such an obvious deterrent.
[...] Here’s what the Slutwalk organizers have to say: On January 24th, 2011, a representative of the Toronto Police gave shocking insight into the Force’s view of sexual assault by stating: “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized”. [...]
I honestly don’t understand what all of the fuss is about. Clearly, rape is wrong. I don’t think any level minded person is disputing that. Clearly, dressing what is termed “slutty”, is also not an open invitation to be raped. Clearly both rape victims and perpetrators come in all different shapes, colours, sizes, and genders.
So having put the obvious out in the open, why are you all so offended, that, gasp, an officer says tone down the booty shorts as a *deterrent*. I don’t think he meant anything more than it than that. While you don’t have to heed his words, I don’t see why you take offence to a perfectly logical recommendation that you can either listen to or ignore.
Everyone is using the argument that “well muslims get raped to, and so do babies, and little boys” so there is no correlation. Fine thats true. But that also begs the argument that rapists have particular tastes as well. The girls who dress slutty attract the attention of certain kinds of rapists and sexual deviants. So yes, your absolutely right, the pedophile that likes to rape little boys probably doesnt care. But the guy that likes to take advantage of drunken half naked teenage girls DOES! Why is that so hard to accept?
You ladies are so quick to scorn the decent men in this world that are simply trying to to PROTECT our sisters and daughters from becoming sexual objects. That is not equal to placing the blame on them, that is protecting them from the pigs that DO see a short skirt and a drunken girl as an invitation.
“You ladies are so quick to scorn the decent men in this world that are simply trying to to PROTECT our sisters and daughters from becoming sexual objects.”
Cuz we wimmin’ are so weak and frail we can’t possibly defend ourselves!
I’m not scorning men; I’m scorning the idiots that think I can’t possibly take care of myself (despite being fully-grown, independent, and intelligent on top of having good, sturdy, Eastern European build) because they think that somehow my vagina has taken over my brain and made me a weepy, frail, little creature that cannot possibly be sullied by the likes of men. Please. I’m asexual and even I’m calling bullshit on that.
I know your heart is in the right place, but I think your brain got stuck in traffic.
You can take care of yourself, here is your cookie. Now think about all the 5 foot something 100 pound girls that don’t have a manly frame like yourself and that on occasion, might need the protection of a knight in shining armor. Wow, we should really scorn those guys, they make Osama Bin Laden look like Prince William.
So yea, sometimes, women can’t defend themselves. Send me to hell for wanting to open the door for ladies and protect them. You say chivalry is dead. Women (or whatever you are) like you KILLED it.
My brain is sitting perfectly in my skull where it should be. Step out of your bra burning box for a hot minute and realize that many women like to be and need to be rescued by a man on occasion.
ya know, I like cake. I think I can excuse myself too… by stealing some from the bakers shops and saying its those damn bakers faults for making them look so good. Those bakers have got it coming and deserve to get their goods stolen.
Me stealing cake = winning! (specially if I get away with it)
*hugs*
[...] a police officer’s advice to students at Osgoode Hall Law School: You can avoid being raped by not dressing “like sluts.” “We are tired of being oppressed by slut-shaming; of being judged by our sexuality and [...]
Essentially, it’s wrong for someone to rape a woman. It’s wrong no matter what the woman is wearing. Forcing sex upon someone without their consent doesn’t have much to do with clothes. Nothing will make that okay.
That being said, I will admit that there is some logic behind the man’s (terrible, tactless, misogynistic) statement, in that women dressing in a provocative way may make men think more about sex. However, it doesn’t mean that a woman’s right to say no has been negated. It’s still all about consent and whether the rapist is going to listen to “No.” It’s still ultimately the rapists’ fault.
It’s incredibly worrisome to hear a comment like this coming from a police officer. Women (and men) who are rape survivors don’t need to deal with this type of judgment. This sort of thing can lead to more rapes not getting reported, and more rapists not seeing justice.
[...] force in January during a campus safety information session at York University. According to the school paper, the officer told female students they should avoid dressing like “sluts” to prevent [...]
[...] as the rally was so aptly named, is a movement to decry Const. Michael Sanguinetti’s alleged comment at a safety talk at York University that “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be [...]
The police officer was there to talk about some of the ways to reduce a woman’s risk of being a target of sexual assualt. That is one of the ways. Therefore he’s correct IMO.
Women should also be allowed to leave their children unattended on the next street corner and the world’s child molesters that might pick up on this potential opportunity had better just mind themselves like gentlemen.
Yeah – sounds good in theory (a theory that I would support, if it weren’t so patently ignorant in its total evasion of common sense).
For the same reason you should not be allowed, as an ignorant parent, to leave your child wandering about the neighborhood; you should also take heed of your personal safety, as an ignorant woman, when trying to lure the attention of men by leaving your tits, ass, and dare I mention… your vagina wandering about (i.e. Brittany Spears). So, yes… your choice of dress JUST MAY have a little something to do with the attention for which you desperately clamor.
You people act like those who utter the phrase, “you dress like a slut, you get treated like one”, are talking about attire that fits lawful standards for decency, or attire that fits environment (i.e. – swimwear at the beach). You “ladies” know exactly what the phrase means and under what conditions. You can play ignorant all you want. It fits your natural comportment anyway.
So, go ahead and sling your tits and ass around for the pathetic male attention you crave. We all know you’re feeding you’re shallow, insecure egos with pointless male gazes, stares and comments that you all supposedly hate so much (which takes no skill at all, since men are so pathetically sycophantic in their own desperate need for the slightest morsel of your attention).
But while you’re willingly engaging in this juvenile (and slutty) activity, don’t suddenly try to feign victimhood with your sanctimonious assessment of typical knuckle-dragging male behavior and try to apply your standards for social etiquette to ALL people. The reality is, there are evil people in the world who simply don’t care what you, or anyone else thinks about rape, rapists and your feminist, social, or legal vision concerning the proper treatment of women.
In the same manner a thief could care less about the legal statutes governing society’s rules against stealing; rapists could give a rat’s ass what you think about a “woman’s right” to dress in any horrendously irresponsible manner she chooses. You ignore the evil in society by arrogantly expecting people to follow your notion of appropriate personal behavior – so, to your ignorant feminist mind, you truly believe you “should be able to” dress in any debauched and highly sexual manner possible…. and the criminal elements out there should suddenly denounce their evil ways and stand at silent attention because you graced their presence with your saggy-assed milk bags hanging out of your shirt.
Agreed – you can only blame a criminal for his, or HER criminal behavior… but for those who also see the reality of the world, we also know that MOST criminals do not act on their urges unless there is clear opportunity.
Furthermore, for sexual predators, it is typically well-known that, over time, they develop their fantasy of sexual control over a woman through erotic vision and dreams; which means all they need is a visual stimulus to turn that fantasy ON. You, as an “empowered woman” who feels she has the right to walk downtown completely naked are directly responsible for providing that stimulus.
Should a person have control over their behavior and choose not to commit a crime? Absolutely. Unless, of course, you’re a woman – then you can act in any tumultuous manner you choose and society is expected to either accept it as behavior that must be understood, concoct a diversionary medical syndrome to justify it, or totally excuse it outright. As always, men should control themselves while women should be free to do anything they choose. The reality of life is, that there is evil in human behavior — and this evil could care less about being controlled. So let’s get eff-ing real.
Everyone has their panties in a wad because the interpretation of what the law enforcement officer said during his rape prevention presentation had the sheer gall to point some responsibility back on women. Christ,… how DARE a person blame a women for anything? As is typical, women retain, nor accept any responsibility, accountability or liability for their personal behavior. None.
In the same manner that law enforcement tries (wretchedly, I might add) to illustrate solidarity and support within the community it operates by holding such “community/crime awareness” campaigns (drug prevention, fraud prevention, rape prevention, etc.) it approaches all such material with segments on what YOU, the citizen, can do to minimize your exposure to crime. Typical advice – don’t leave your car running while you run into a convenience store… lock your home tight and leave a few lights on during the evening to simulate regular activity should you go on vacation…. cover your hands while entering your PIN at the ATM…. don’t leave your friggin’ kids unattended on the next city block…. and the dreaded “don’t dress like a slut” advice. Of course, since the latter implies (accurately) women only (oh… and women’s “sexuality”) – then holy sh1t…. we’ve suddenly got a huge social upheaval on our hands.
This is precisely why it’s acceptable for Lorena Bobbitt to slice off her husband’s penis (while the entire collection of you women cheered and snickered), but societies that practice female circumcision are cruel and abusive towards women. This is precisely why we have “Safe Haven” laws that support women abandoning their children without repercussion – but if a man abandons his family, then he’s a friggin’ deadbeat. This is precisely why female teachers can rape and prey upon and victimize teen and preteen boys while getting almost NO prison time, and society looks at these filthy scumbags as merely “misguided” and likely traumatized themselves… but male teachers who do the same thing to their female students are predatory molesters who need to be hung by the balls while sulfuric acid is poured down their urethras.
You double-standard idiots aren’t fooling anyone with your crap.
Dress respectably and you might get the respect you think you deserve. Personally, your attitudes illustrate otherwise.
Just a quick one this time — “Safe Haven” laws apply equally to men and women as parents in the instance that nobody can take care of the child and that the child becomes a state ward. In the other case, leaving one’s family leaves children in the care of the other parent. They’re both unfortunate cases, with contexts that cannot be assumed.
However, they’re different cases. “Safe Haven” exists so that children don’t die because the parent(s) cannot (or will not) care for the child, so the option is offered to keep the child in the care of the state. Leaving your family, on the other hand, is tantamount to shedding responsibility and placing it on the other parent. Who do you assume is most likely to leave a family, and who is often left with the largely unmanageable burden of single parenthood? “Safe Haven” might then alleviate the problems caused by unilateral parent withdrawal from a family, and the injustice therein.
And another “quick one” in return…
Contrarian dogma for the sake of contrary is a complete waste of a wise man’s time. You can try your best to be apologetic and supportive for women who abandon their children by using “Safe Haven” laws, but anyone can see that you’re simply trying to invalidate, in a very feeble manner, the overall point (which was never addressed) by laser-spotting a single point in the basket of many.
Please… please…. tell me again how women should be allowed to act in any out-of-control manner they choose while men are not afforded such freedom simply because men can also utilize the “Safe Haven” law (which I’ll bet my life on the guess that men have likely used it less than a percent of the total times employed)?
Oh, that wasn’t your point? Exactly… it wasn’t mine either.
Something has to be done against this gynocratic sexism.
The officer said it well
Unfortunately, still jails are sex-separated and there are about 100 times more prisoners in the male jails than in the female jails. Why are the “poor women” underrepresented that much? Maybe the world needs slut quotas (“women quotas”) for jails much mote than slut quotas for companies, governments, & Co.
Also, a freedom of clothing has to be defined without respect of the sex. Why do “the men” have to wear (at >= 100 Fahrenheit) ties, thick black jackets, closed black “male shoes” & Co, while the sluts (“poor women”) have the “obvious right” to wear anything (including “slut style”) in the very same situation?
Not to talk about slut hospitals (“women hospitals”), slut schools (“girls schools”), slut-only buses and trains, and similar facilities. Remember “white-people-only” facilities back in the 50ties?
Why are only sluts (“women”) protected from sexual and other crimes, but the remaining people are not?
In many countries (including Russia, China, Turkey, Italy, and many others) men have to go into war but women are not. All OK?
Really, men HAVE to wear those things? You never see men in the summer without shirts on? Always in business suits eh?
Right.
Just because issues of male incarceration (which really is more of a race issue than a sex issue, if you want to get down to it) and drafts aren’t discussed here doesn’t mean women advocating gender equality don’t care about them. The same culture that teaches men to be violent against women is teaching them to be violent in other ways, which is partially to blame for inequality in the jail system. And that’s wrong. We should work harder to keep men from committing crimes and keep the legal system from assuming that women are weak and incapable of criminal actions. NO ONE is advocating for men to go to jail more frequently than women. Nor are they advocating men being forced to go to war.
But two wrongs don’t make a right, and blaming women for sexual assault doesn’t balance out military drafts.
Also I have no idea what the point of repeatedly referring to women as sluts in your post is about. In fact most of this makes fairly little sense. There are no buses or trains for only women…
So once again, women are to blame for everything. And yet, MEN use women to sell sex everywhere, from commercials to porn. YES YOU MEN, and you get away with it. If I decide to walk NAKED in public, that would be my choice and if a MAN decided he wants to treat me like a “slut” and assault me due to his typical manhood of horniness and disrespect to women, thats his fault and his problem, NOT MINE. Men need to grow up. In this society (well worldwide in fact), men are taught to be aggressive, competitive, and “I need sex” beings.
Worldwide, women are being used and abused and men get away from it all. Look at the rapes, look at crime, look at human trafficking, even prostitution, MAJORITY of the players are men within these categories!!! SHAME. Its no wonder some women just hate men all together.
I disagree with this cop, and they should be looking at the man who just cannot keep their dam penises out of their brains.
Shoot the man. They are worthless anyways!
Not exactly… once again, women are to blame for their shameless behavior. Mot “everything”. And no – women aren’t innocent “victims” in the sex trade, or the marketing of sex in advertising campaigns. Women aren’t being forced at gunpoint to “star” in sex-charged, or highly-erotic commercials, films and TV shows.
And if you think prostitution is a problem only generated by men, — you’re a complete idiot.
Women are free to choose not to participate in the commercialization of sex; should women respond to lucrative offers to model for/endorse products, that is the fault of those specific women. Ample reward for services rendered ? coercion. Men “get away” with this because some women fully consent to it and facilitate its execution.
“If I decide to walk NAKED in public” – you would be in a tricky scenario. You wouldn’t be able to take any legal action for people staring, and in addition, the officer would be legally obligated to touch you (albeit in a non-sexual way) in order to place you under arrest for indecent exposure and likely refer you to counselling. Attempting to sue the officer for touching you would be frivolous and baseless.
“look at crime,”
Most crimes are not committed with a distinctly sexist point of view, nor are they all committed by men.
” look at human trafficking,”
Women are targeted for the sex trade, true, but males (labourers and others) are also frequently victims of human trafficking.
“even prostitution”
Do you know what a ‘madam’ is? In addition, in most instances of prostitution, I would encourage you to think about who’s really getting screwed.
“men are taught to be aggressive, competitive, and “I need sex” beings.”
No. It’s generally accepted that these are instinctual drives stemming from the biological imperative. It is not taught, and one can observe these behaviours in uneducated animals. With entry into socialized life, however, we systematically educate women and men to alter their natural drives in order to accomplish higher goals (which includes a compact to avoid harming each other, disciplining oneself to work a 40-hour week, growing/harvesting food when one isn’t hungry, establishing governance and building public institutions, et cetera) and enforce the agreement in order to act on the concept of human rights. We have to consider the delicate balancing act between the drives of humans and the conditions in which it is necessary to maintain a just society. We then define moral parameters for indulgence in those drives, delineating, for example, that pornography is acceptable, but rape is not. We then take measures to ensure that unacceptable acts do not impinge on what we have ascertained to be our rights.
The problem yet remains: how do we fully ensure that our rights are protected, and if they are not, should we avoid exercising our rights to protect ourselves? I think it’s been sufficiently demonstrated that rape can occur regardless of dress, and that even if you believe conservative dress can decrease your odds of being assaulted, that it’s STILL possible that women below the changing standard of “sluttiness” can be raped. The source of the problem must be attacked, and attacked with precision: enforcement and education are of paramount concern. The solution is to attack, not to fabricate a new Maginot Line that can be deftly outflanked by the enemy. One major reason why people are upset with this police officer is because he didn’t give mention to proactive solutions such as amplified enforcement, community policing, or educational efforts, and concentrated on outmoded defenses that will be negated as soon as the enemy becomes aware that they are being implemented.
All that dead-horse-beating aside, give it a rest, Angela. When you say “It’s no wonder some women just hate men all together,” you mean that you hate men but you don’t want to appear biased. It’s too late for that passive-aggressive stuff now (although you appear to go full-blown aggressive later). Your anger and desire to judge those who have judged you has made your judgment just as poor, maybe even poorer. “Shoot the man. They are worthless anyways!” is no different, and even if it’s said for shock value or to make a point about victimizing an entire gender, contributes nothing positive and encourages no thoughtful criticism.
It really is this kind of worthless dreck that entrenches LoneWolf in his views about irrational, emotionally unstable man-haters that are incapable of seeing the point and dedicated to ‘proving’ a man wrong and inferior at every conceivable opportunity. Your inability to come to the table with an even keel and an open mind is damaging to your position. It reinforces LoneWolf’s conception and polarizes your own to the point of irrational extremity. I’m glad the vast majority of women are not like you, because I would find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with LoneWolf. I assume he’s a good enough dude, but I wouldn’t want to emulate him.
One last, long-winded thing: Think about Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo. Ms. Homolka, who was equally, if not more twisted and culpable for the couple’s crimes, successfully leveraged her position as a woman to assert that she acted under the coercion of Bernardo, the ‘real monster,’ and secured a reduced sentence which she has already served. The idea that all men are always the problem does nothing but hurt the conception of justice. Homolka’s case, among others, proves that women can and do become ‘monsters’ given the opportunity. That said, it’s not men or women that are the problem. It’s those men and women that break the fundamental laws of our society that need to be hunted with extreme prejudice and institutional acuity. Generalizing your bad experiences with some men to all men doesn’t help us, and it doesn’t help you. Seek help.
You’re really obsessed with me, aren’t you? I must have tweaked you pretty directly if you can’t even address another poster and her individual points in this little thread without somehow mentioning me in your rebuttal.
Oh, and I love the tactic of referring to my views as being “entrenched” and as being “reinforced” as “conceptions” — love it, love it. It gives the less perceptive readers the notion of meaningless negativity where my opinions are concerned. In fact, my opinions are quite positive, indeed. And I’ll agree – they’re absolutely reinforced in a very positive way… by feminist ideology, manginas – like yourself- who support such sexist tripe and by “men” who continue to enable women into ridiculous, illogical thinking such as they can truly walk around with their tits hanging out of their shirts and the criminals among us had better not act upon their criminal impulses.
All the women-worship in the universe, supported by you, or anyone else, isn’t going to change my positive viewpoints concerning the seething anti-male attitudes in society and how they affect men directly.
Close-minded? Absolutely. I had my mind open to many views in the past – then I had the balls to finally make a firm decision on the subject based on my personal beliefs, doctrine and philosophy. Therefore, there’s no need to “open” my mind to the female nonsense any longer.
So… keep me in your thoughts, as you apparently do – and I certainly know you will. Oh, and keep up the female apologist, enabling, sycophantic, self-hating, mangina efforts. They only help to remind me of why I stopped doing anything for women, or for those that enable their crazed, emotionally unstable, illogically out-of-control behavior.
… and more and more men are finally standing up to the bullshit, as well.
Educate yourself – which I doubt you will:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/
http://www.manwomanmyth.com/
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/
http://whatmenthinkofwomen.blogspot.com/
http://malechauvinist.blogspot.com/
I’m done with you.
Well…there are kind of two issues at play here. We don’t want to reduce the problem into victim-blaming, because we know that sexual assault is a crime perpetrated by the assailant. The victim is exactly that: a victim. No amount of victim-blaming will solve this problem.
Let me pose the other issue a bit differently. Suppose that I am a millionaire attending a party, and I stop at a gas station on the way. At the gas station, a car full of hoodlums pulls up next to me and considers robbing me. Imagine the difference if I’m wearing a tuxedo, rings, a Rolex, and a $300 pair of leather shoes versus a pair of jeans, clean tennis shoes, and a leather jacket over a button-up shirt. It’s not that I am doing anything wrong by dressing this way, nor is it that I don’t have a right to do so. The issue is that criminals are by and large opportunists, and they may see my clothing as a sign of a good opportunity.
I think the same thing MAY BE TRUE IN CERTAIN CASES about a woman’s clothing. A sexual criminal could be “turned on” by certain clothing or what their broken mind perceives to be an invitation.
I do not think, however, that it is actually worth it to emphasize this point over more important safety measures. Many men want to protect women, and there may be cases where more-conservative clothing could help, but I think it would be wiser to emphasize traveling in groups, not leaving a drink sitting at a party, etc. These are also things we do because they help keep us safe (even if we shouldn’t have to do them), and I’d wager they’re a lot more effective at preventing sexual assault than dressing a bit differently.
You’re actually trying to make logical sense in a sea of pathetic idiocy. Shame on you.
It’s pretty obvious to rational people who aren’t raised in the “women-should-be-allowed-to-do-absolutely-anything-without-criticism-or-condemnation” feminist orbit (which includes manginas, white knights and other spineless man who are afriad they won’t get laid unless they go along with the feminist agenda) — that the law enforcement officer in this case wasn’t trying to imply that women’s fashion decisions are the sole reason they get raped. My understanding of this little story is that his comment concerning “dressing like a slut” was one of MANY suggestions to not make yourself a target…. much in the same way that I’d likely not jump into tropical, shark-infested waters if my goal is to avoid being torn to pieces by a shark.
Feminist mentality, however, argues that women should be allowed to jump into such dangerous waters (“we have the right to do anything we want”) and the sharks should “know better” — which is the same way liberals and globalists tend to wish a perfect world into fruition by completely ignoring the fact that evil exists.
Sharks exist. And I’m sorry to report – rapists, scoundrels and criminals exist.
For the most part – yes – criminals will commit crimes against other people regardless of the victim’s choice of frock — but as a sensible insurance practice to minimize your chances of becoming a victim, you don’t flash your Rolex and strut around Compton in your $500 dress shoes — much in the same way you shouldn’t have your friggin’ tits hanging out and your ass cheeks exposed. Why? There are sharks in the water…. and they could give two sh1ts what you think men’s behavior should, or should not be.
It’s amazing that this concept would have to be explained to anyone… mangina, or woman.
Also, I’m surprised that people are surprised that cops support rape culture and perpetuate it with their “advice.” It’s 2011 and the patriarchy stands strong.
I’m sure that this has been said already, but here goes.
No matter how much or how little clothing someone (of any fucking gender) is wearing, they should be able to be fucked up, passed out, asleep, or in any other condition – at any party, at anyone’s house, on any couch, kitchen floor, parking garage, in any public park, abandoned building, or gutter – and not be fucking touched by anyone. I don’t care if they’re wearing a turtleneck dress with gloves and pajama footies, if they’re wearing a cocktail dress, shorts and a t-shirt, a bra and a g-string made of dollar bills, or even if they’re completely fucking naked. No one has a right to anyone’s body with their consent. End of the argument.
And while all people are capable of sexual assault, men have even more of an obligation to NOT FUCKING RAPE PEOPLE, seeing as they are encouraged to perpetrate (through the media, their parents, their elders, and their peers) and are often excused for that particularly disgusting human behavior (as has been illuminated from some of the comments left by men on this page). We need to address the root of the problem and work against it, through teaching and using explicit verbal consent and sex-positive sex education, rather than saying WELL TOO BAD BITCH, YOU DRESSED LIKE A SLUT, EXPECT TO GET TREATED LIKE ONE!
And most of the sluts I know, myself included, like to be treated respectfully and consensually by all of our partners. And if anyone fucks us against our will (AKA if we don’t say YES – because silence still means no), it is rape, and it is NEVER okay. If someone wants to get off and can’t find someone to help them, they need to go fuck themselves (quite literally).
Can this discussion please fucking end? Can sexist, privileged dudes quit commenting on this now? While you’re at it, go unlearn all the attitudes you’ve been taught about women and learn that our bodies are none of your fucking business unless we say yes (or unless we ask you first).
Fuck you.
So, Officer Footinmouth, what crime statistics support your claim?
Or, just your personal, warped view of how things should work?
To extend this warped view of the world:
Avoid getting car-jacked, don’t drive a flashy car!
Avoid getting burglarized, don’t live in a beautiful home!
Avoid getting mugged, don’t walk outside!
Avoid getting robbed, don’t work in a bank!
My Mom had a name for people like this cop: jackass!
“Just because I have a clown suit on, doesn’t mean I work for the circus”
Right… more indignant calls for women to be protected from any criticism, comment, or condemnation of their typically out-of-control, tumultuous and illogical behavior.
For decades, women have enjoyed the umbrella of protection over the freedom to act in any psychotically unstable manner they choose — and society is expected to either accept it as behavior that must be understood, concoct a diversionary medical syndrome to justify it, or totally excuse it outright — and heaven forbid you ever criticize it because the issue will suddenly turn to your uncaring, unsympathetic, insensitive, bullying nature instead of the crazed female behavior that spawned your “mean”, “abusive” reaction to it.
So – in keeping with the sentiment of “equality” (since you idiot women love to spout off about such utopian nonsense) — if you truly believe that dressing like a slut doesn’t mean you should be viewed by society as a slut [and thereby treated like one] — then it should also be noted that just because I dress like a rapist, doesn’t mean that I’m a rapist.
The problem with you imbeciles is that you NEVER consider your personal behavior as the catalyst for the treatment you INVITE into your life. It’s always someone else’s fault. Yes, nobody “deserves” to get raped… but the word “deserves” isn’t a part of the equation here. If you practice ANY behavior, whether it’s your slutty attitude, or the slutty manner in which you dress – you are taking the captain’s chair in steering your vessel straight into disastrous waters. Therefore, accept your ship’s predictable doom.
Now deal with it.
How does one dress like a rapist? I want to try this out.
Since idiots deal in the commodity of “idiocy”; you should know full well exactly what that means.
As tactless as “Fair Game’s” comment is I believe you’re taking it a bit to far to suggest they are a, blaming the victim for the crime, or, b; that only girls who look like the idealised women we see in the media are the victim of assault. They are remarking, albeit poorly, that some victims are ‘chosen’ as a result of the criminals attraction to the victim which is possibly to do with how they are dress (though this is not in all cases). There is a good point to be made that if a woman or a man dresses provocatively then (some, possibly most) people (both the same and opposite sexes) will make assumptions about the people so dressed. A woman dress scantily may not be a slut, but it far beyond any one on here (I hope at least) to assure us that how we respond to such a person is wrong or not.
Further, “You are furthering ideas that men have uncontrollable urges and act on impulse rather than the fact that they have internatilized misogyny and feel the need to exert control over women due to their own insecurities about masculinity.” There seems to be some misunderstanding between internalized misogyny and uncontrollable. As I see it uncontrollable actions would require some form of base consciousness that we are not aware of. So there seems no reason why men, and women alike, should not have urges they are not in control of (though that’s not to say that they cannot overcome them. I have an urge to eat, but I’m not doing so or even going to.)
“I happen to know a lot of decent men who don’t believe that the way a woman is dressed gives you permission to do what you please with her. I also know of a lot of men who think they have that permission, regardless of the situation or your dress.”
I’m glad you’re friends and acquaintances represent every demographic of male mental state.
What is at point here is that women should do what they can to stop any possibility of being sexually assaulted. No one is claiming that not being dressed like a ‘slut’ will save you, or even that being dressed so will lead to assault. But if at any rate it may make more conspicuious in certain environments then it would surely be best to avoid making yourself obvious. Assuming that do actually select their victims in terms of their preferences (looks, personality etc) or environment (location, presence of other people, their own psychological factors) then it seems intuitive that, just as any one out on ‘pull’ would, you choose those you approach based on whether they, or the situation satisfy a number of factors. How a person is dress MAY be one of them. This isn’t sexism, this is good advice badly put.
And as to any claim that this is men offloading blame for their crimes onto women, that does not seem to be the case here. Though there is certainly a debate in this area. Consider whether brands should feel the guilt for making their products enticing enough for some one to steal them from a shop or another person?
We as people judge everyone – Everyone in this room as some issue with some ethnicity.
Kids who where baggy clothes are THUGS or Hood Rats and are profiled as always being in trouble.
Woman/Men who are from the middle east are classified as terrorists
Woman who wear less clothes are consider to be sluts and easy
People who drive white vans with no windows are child molesters
etc, etc etc……..
We as people do this. Everyone does it. At one point in everyones life you had some type of bias opinion about another person or their ethnicity because we heard it growing up or from a friend or from the media… We seem to be weak minded to come up with our own opinions about people rather we survive on others to feed this stuff to us. The media alone is the worse.
Sorry for multiple posts but I just read this statement: “don’t tell me that men should control themselves because it is not possible.men are wired that way. When a women parades around half naked and teases a man it creates a chemical reaction in his brain that gets him thinking like he is on drugs. “SCIENTIFIC FACT”..and it can never be change.”
Biggest load of balderdash I ever heard! It sounds like the sort of thing adolescent males say when trying to get into a girls panties and saying …’but I will get blue balls and it will be all your fault.’ Ridiculous!! Most men understand that just because they get a hard on, does not mean they have to force it on the nearest female and it IS controllable. Please…get real!
The sad truth is that in life, women are going to be sexually assaulted. Not saying there is ever a situation where a women deserves it, but will it happen? Yes, it will. If you can agree on that, then can you not agree that women should take precautions to protect themselves. Somone made a comparison of theft of their wallet in a shady neighbourhood vs rape: of course this is not an equal meausre of loss, however, I think i see his point which is that both are an infringement on the person’s rights. And you can either take precautions, or stand on principle. I will 100% agree with all you women out there who say the cause of the problem is the men who engage in this criminal behaviour. Therefore, how do we go about fixing this? Crack down on the offenders? Increase punishment to try and deter future sex offenders? Sure, sounds like a plan. Whatever your solution, for the time being, are you going to A) taunt the hungry lion with a piece of meat? Or B) discretely wait until his training (for lack of a better word) is complete? I like analogies, so perhaps another: you have to treat the symptoms until the cause is identified and cured. Otherwise the symptoms could end up killing the patient. Yes, women have every right to dress sexy (even dress like a slut if thats what you please), but life isn’t fair- so regarding the offenders out there who do exist, who do you think they will target first? You need to look at the cold, hard facts regarding human behaviour, and act accordingly in response. Not fair? No. But necessary? Probably. Its one of those “sad but true” scenarios. You can either act on principle or react to maximize a favourable outcome for yourself.
I completely agree that no victim should be blamed for being sexually assaulted. Especially because as a few of you have pointed out, it happens to more than just the “slut demographic.” I am, however, speaking to the sample of females who insist on dressing like sluts for the purpose of establishing their right to do so, and all the while hoping that the problem will vanish, or at least the number of occurrences will be reduced.
How about we raise men NOT to be “hungry lions” and instead be human beings, who don’t treat women like objects to be consumed.
Women dress how they please and hope the problem will vanish because really, we don’t have much power in making it go away. We can’t convince men not to rape because we’re written off as “feminazis” and ignored. It’s up to MEN to talk to each other and take it upon themselves not to rape. They are thinking human beings and can listen and learn about the ways our society blames women for being assaulted and writes off men who refuse to respect a woman’s right to say no. Not all rapists are sociopaths incapable of grasping right and wrong. Plenty of them are just assholes looking for any opportunity to get what they want. They didn’t have to turn out that way. The media and other men in their lives could have prevented them from being misogynistic monsters but it didn’t. Instead it told girls to wear more clothes.
I just read this comment : “You think a woman wearing a turtle-neck sweater and running shoes, normal pair of jeans, is going to get raped?”
YES!!!! it happens all the time. That is such an ignorant comment. Rape is a crime of opportunity. Most rapes are by people we know. It doesn’t matter what you wear.
The sad part of what the cop said is that already, most rapes are not reported and it because of this attitude that “you brought it on yourself”. I recently hooked up with some old school friends who I hadn’t seen in years and the subject came up and now that we are all older and have healed over years, we can talk about it. Everyone one of us (6 girls) had had some kind of sexual molestation or assault and none of us had reported it. Most of the perpetrators were relatives or family friends. None of us “dress like sluts”.
What I can’t get my head around is….what is “dressing like a slut” exactly? To a muslim, its showing your hair, your arms and well anything. In the western world, you just have to open a fashion magazine to see that heels, short skirts and some cleavage is acceptable dress. Can the cops give us a definition of how we should dress so that we can avoid all the lechers out there? Perhaps there is a business in big baggy sacks we can wear to help us all avoid being raped? Maybe all the men would be happier that way, they won’t be tempted? Because we all know they have no control so its up to women to look as unattractive as possible.
Dressing like a slut seems to be relative. In this context ‘slut’ should probably be seen as referring to ‘dressing in a way as to make yourself stand out to people in the social situations you are a part of’. To some this may been just a bit of skin to others it may be virtually all your skin on show. And this isn’t to say that a woman who exposes her self entirely to a very conservative society is more going to be assaulted as there are many factors at play in a would be attackers mind and dress and attractiveness in general may not even come into it (there may be environmental concerns).
And this morning I walked to work leaving my car in the garage (let us pretend that I have a decent car), If i leave the garage door up it increases the chances of my car be stolen (in some ways at least) on the basis that it may entice people to steal it (though not every one enticed will resort to theft(. If however I close the garage door then i reduce the risk (however slight) of my car being stolen. Perhaps if my car is stolen whilst the door is down any way because some one decided to have a sneaky look any way and decided to steal it. This can still happen, but there is alot to be said about reducing risks no matter how small they are or whether or not the presence of something (bare flesh or an open garage door) is the main reason/ or even any sort of reason for the crime.
Your statement does nothing but expose your ignorance. If you’re so “sure” that girls considered “eye-candy” are the only ones being assaulted I’d encourage you to educate yourself.
Regardless of how a woman chooses to dress or act, neither her clothing nor her actions speak louder than her words. “No” always means “no”, regardless of your moral objections to her life choices.
I just love these women who feel they have to bring in ‘Freedoms’ when it involves their literal safety that society and media-related problems have made them thinking that DRESSING LIKE A SLUT, which most women DO, is the NORM of trying to be ‘attractive’.
Here is the reality, women who openly dress to reveal so much god damn skin whether it be to show a giant chunk of their cleavage, belly or anything of that sort, they are ASKING FOR IT, the cop said something that was a generalization, but a Truthful one, a harsh-reality has been launched. What he said is HONEST, the cold hard truth, whiners gonna whine though, because people these days cannot handle the truth, they cannot handle reality and they will not accept negative portrayals where although negative, it is the Truth.
Cock-teases, Sluttiness, ‘Asking for it’, Jailbait, you name it, a LOT of women dress like whores or sluts as if its natural, they are definitely asking for it, there is NO debate about it, a town I live nearby called Bowmanville is called BONERVILLE by the males because of how tons of the highschool women dress like ‘Sluts’ as the officer put it.
Women, here’s a message, Negative/Neutral/Positive stereotypes exist, women dressing as sluts is a Negative one However, that doesn’t make it false, a lie or a fabrication of any kind. You think a woman wearing a turtle-neck sweater and running shoes, normal pair of jeans, is going to get raped? Or the one with stiletto-high-heels as if she’s into BDSM, an overly-tight and revealing shirt with their breasts nearly popping out and either wearing SHORT SHORTS or Short-short shorts or noodle-G-strings or just the tightest pants riding up their ass with their g-string of course going above their hip-bone, you name it. I see women dressing flirtatiously as a Norm every single day! It’s not right, it shouldn’t be normal, women get ogled and stared at by perverted men for a reason, because they dress to impress, WAYYYYY TOOOO MUCHHH.
Where what you want, but being IGNORANT and indecent with how people will perceive you, is YOUR OWN(The women who do this) FAULT. Again:
The officer did nothing but tell the cold hard truth as bluntly, and honestly as possible. Stop dressing like sluts and am sure rape victims will decrease, what else do you think is going to happen? How about a 18 year old teenage girl hangs around a 14 year old, her boobs will just be openly revealed yet still covered, giving the sub-conscious curiosity and desire of wonder and desire, varying on the mental capacity or instabilities, those said-teased people will either become rapists or anything similar, or just become a normal desperately perverted male, or perhaps just a normal person…..Women dressing as they are, instinctively, causes a Tease which will slowly drive a man wild slowly but surely varying sub-consciously or consciously how desperate or horny they are.
Women, surely are Asking for it. Period.
You do men a great disservice by insinuating that a simple change of clothes can transform them into a slobbering beast incapable of stopping themselves from raping a woman.
Men are human beings, who can think and feel. And they should be able to understand that rape is always wrong, and always the fault of the rapist, because THEY committed the crime. They were not incapable of stopping themselves, they were not hypnotized by a woman’s body. They made the choice to assault another human being. And guess what: every single day women are assaulted who are wearing every different kind of clothing imaginable. Rape doesn’t only happen in alleyways behind dance clubs. It happens to the attractive and the unattractive, the old and the young, the “slutty” and the “prudish.”
Asking women to find ways to make themselves “less rapeable” just means men will find ways around it, or will simply ignore it. If I wear a longer dress, that doesn’t protect me from a rapist. If I stay home all day with my doors locked, that STILL doesn’t protect me from a rapist. All it does is ensure that I have to conduct myself in a less-free way then men. As long as we live in a society where women are treated like objects, blamed for their own assaults, treated as inferior to men who are given a free pass to beat and rape us because we were “asking for it,” rape will continue to plague us.
Just look around the world. Check some figures on sexual assault and rape of women in cultures with far more conservative dress customs than ours. Do you think they’re particularly low? Do you think women in the Congo are walking around in high heels and miniskirts? How are THEY asking for it?
I cannot for the life of me understand how the Toronto Police Department is being stigmatized as a result of the socially backwards comments of ONE of it’s officers. How exactly is it that the statements made by a single officer come to represent the entire police force?
I myself happen to be an officer and in no way/shape/or form do I agree with the things that were said by this tool. Never in my life would I consider that a woman who was victimized by some dirtbag faced such because of the way she dressed. In fact I want to be an officer to do everything I can to STOP that from ever happening in the first place!!
So why is it that HIS viewpoint is being represented as that shared by ALL of the police department? Why would I need training to “fix” my misogynistic view of the world, when it doesn’t exist? FFS I have a degree in Cultural Anthropology from the University of Toronto, and so I’m pretty sure I understand the complexity and value of gender politics better than the majority of the people who marched in the “slut walk….”
I swear to God, the general public is under the impression the police force lobotomizes every officer upon their graduation. And then proceeds to inject the same hegemonic “hate free speech and liberal thought” schpeel (in classic Kubrick fashion, no doubt. Speculum and all….) in just for good measure.
In reality however we are all human beings, with our own thoughts and opinions. Sadly that means we are going to have to deal with people who don’t share the same enlightened views and there is nothing we can do about it. But I don’t understand why I should have to apologize for the actions of another adult human being, even if he happens to share the same profession. I don’t share his views, and I wouldn’t share his company, so why should I be forced to share his guilt?
It’s just so frustrating.
This is repulsive.
By any one AGREEING or believing this..
means that we are now giving excuses for men to treat women as sexual objects.. as women we have the freedom to dress as we want.
just as men can, by saying that women should stop dressing like sluts ..
puts us back couple decades and puts us back into times where
men controlled everything.. these men are DISGUSTING
and obviously have perverted minds.. how do we have proof that cause these
“women were dressing slutty” are the rape victims? this is IGNORANT
women that are fully clothed also fall into the category of sexual envcounters..
what is their excuse then?
REPULSIVE …. disgusting and REPULSIVE.
No…. what the officer was logically pointing out is, that you – as an “empowered” today’s kind of chick – have ultimate control over what attention you invite into your life… and your choices in dress have a substantial impact on that.
I highly doubt that anyone, especially a law enforcement officer, is actually saying that women’s fashion is THE ONLY REASON that rape occurs.
But let’s cut to the chase… please tell me that the reason women get dolled up (to ANY degree) is to impress themselves, or their lesbian counterparts. No – it’s to ATTRACT MEN…… period. Therefore, logically, a law enforcement officer is likely speaking from his experience with rape cases that most of the “victims” he sees are women WHO DRESS LIKE SLUTS (and don’t act as though you have no clue what that means… because it’ll only show how detached from reality you are). To that end, since women dress to attract men, they typically receive the precise attention they have worked so hard at getting all dressed up for.
In addition, since men are such Neanderthalic, classless, filthy, parasitic scumbags…. then the question one has to ask is, “why the hell are women wasting their time dressing up to attract such vermin?”
Again… you and all you like-minded pathetic sisters…. you can fool yourselves with this tripe, but you can’t shade over material facts and logic – which is the playing field most men operate on.
Now get lost.
So are you saying that women shouldn’t dress to attempt to attract men for consensual sex, or that the attention she gets from a man during consensual sex is “the precise attention” that she gets from a rapist?
How come you can spit vitriol at a woman who is angry but utilizing sound argumentation, but I can’t patronize a woman who clearly promotes flawed experiments and dangerously outdated thinking?
“you can’t shade over material facts and logic”
You mean ingrained assumptions based on no research but what your folksy, conservative parents taught you and insistence upon whatever moral stance that pops into your head as pure, unadulterated fact.
Thanks for all the comments Piratbox. I appreciate the clarity and force of your comments. Given some of the responses to these ongoing issues, force was due. In any case, thanks. We need more thinkers rather than the refusing-to-think-or-reason-about-what-we-think-we-know experiential machines that so many people (i.e. cop;missy etc.) seem to be.
Aw, shucks. You’re welcome. You should know that I’m doing this primarily for my own sick gratification, though. If some good comes as an ancillary effect, so be it. If none does, then my playground retains its abundant entertainment value.
This is the reason nobody will continue to argue with me beyond post two.
Wow — that strategy is always effective: attack one’s parent’s, or upbringing, or guess at their personal political/social leanings and mock them (which is humorous at best) . It’s akin to what 6-year old children do. Once again…. you have nothing of value to add.
Therefore, I’ll elect not to waste my time providing value in return.
I just want to make few comments regarding this issue
1) The officer should’ve not used the word “slut”
2) But it is not wrong for him to tell women to cover up, it is a legitimate safety tip.
He’s not blaming the victim, however, if a rapist was on the prowl one night there is a higher chance he would choose a girl that would turn him on and the chances are a girl that is showing more skin would be chosen. I’m not trying to say, if you cover up you are guaranteed safety, however, you are more likely to be assaulted if the rapist finds you a turn on. And maybe he gets turned on by women who fully cover themselves but I would probably say that is more rare than not.
It is essentially the same thing as tourist agency warning tourist not to explicitly wear jewelry when they are visiting theft prone area.
From my male viewpoint the fact is many men care about the opposite sex (clearly there are also some men who prey on women).
And we just want women to stay safe and look after themselves. Why does there have to such a huge outcry over this?
Yes it was a bit rude in the policeman’s choice of words-but the intention in his message was clear, right and noble.
The fact is even though its the 21st century many things haven’t changed i.e. women are still vulnerable. You are not assured your safety just because you deserve to be safe.
I think another important issue that should be discussed is the rise in promiscuity in women and men in general & the amount of alcohol young people indulge in.
I think thats really damaging to our society-this is readily seen in: how some men and women treat each other so disrespectfully; high divorce rates; single parent families.
Anyway please everyone stay safe-I remember hearing a few rapes occurred in and around the York campus last year.
If all you wonderful, women-loving men really care then stop putting all the responsibility for stopping sexual assault on the shoulders of the victims. Stop telling women how not to get raped, and start telling your fellow men to not rape. Tell them not to promote a culture that treats women like objects that don’t have to give consent to men who want to use them. Tell them that no means no, silence means no, being unconscious means no, and that only yes means yes.
As one poster aptly differentiated sexual assault from rape are not necessarily equal. Rape is a word that should conjure strong feelings. It’s a shame it’s being watered down and referred to as “sexual assault” .. .. Carlin would be pissed.
I digress..
As I read these posts, and the discussions of how rape happens regardless of the clothing and cultures, it’s clear that rape is a human phenomenon that crosses cultures.
That’s lame.
As much as I’d like to see rapists removed from the gene pool, it wouldn’t fix the system that creates them. As another posted mentioned, it is modeling and the incentives that create these people. Simply put, when the penalty for an act as repugnant as rape is not commensurate with the consequences for the victim, there is an incentive to do it.
Equating the outfit to the crime has no merit beyond the factor of convenience.
In the end, the victim is simply in the wrong place at the wrong time!
If the miniskirt makes for a shorter interaction (faster escape) then that’s likely why you’d see more rapes perpetrated against mini-skirt wearers than pant wearers.
Ultimately, it’s the depraved victimizer that’s the problem. It’s a much more difficult target for law enforcement. This police officer sounded lazy more than anything. “Don’t dress like a slut” really comes off as, “I have no idea where to start protecting the public safety when it comes to sexual assault” .. Dolt.
A stronger woman makes for a more difficult target.
Let’s strengthen them, and let them continue to dress sexy.
They feel good knowing their attractive, and I enjoy their company.
And apparently, let’s not let Quatar men immigrate to this country – seems they’d have a higher proclivity towards rape.
wait.. maybe that last part was a bit much..
I am 12 years old and what is this?
I agree with him too. If you flaunt it then suffer the consequences. I am also upset that women want to turn Toronto into “SLUT CITY”.
Women need to be educated in how this behavior effects men. AND don’t tell me that men should control themselves because it is not possible.
men are wired that way. When a women parades around half naked and teases a man it creates a chemical reaction in his brain that gets him thinking like he is on drugs. “SCIENTIFIC FACT”..and it can never be change. He will do things and say things that he would not normally. Women should be aware that some day this defense will be upheld it the courts. The research has been done and its just a mater of time before it is presented in the courts. Ladies , dont set this stage for your daughters.
Actually… it’s always “possible.” Men do have control and they do have the power to make the right choices in life. By saying what you’ve said, you’re perpetuating the notion that men are brainless twits who can’t think for themselves in a responsible manner. If you truly believe this, then speak for yourself.
This attitude is why women have control over you… because you resign to some idiotic anti-male, feminist marketing that says “men only think with their penises” – meaning that they don’t think at all. You’re actively contributing to the social devaluing of men…. by accepting this victimhood label (a victim of your own supposed uncontrollable sexual urges). It’s complete nonsense. Wise up, man.
So… I disagree. Men are the ones who need to be educated — and it is women who should eff-ing control themselves.
>(officer)Hey, I wouldn’t walk down that street wearing Gang patches. You might get hurt
>(officer)Hey, I wouldn’t walk down that street wearing wearing slutty clothing. You might get hurt
What’s the difference?
The sort of person that commits an act of violent rape or sexual assault does not possess a brain that functions on a level high enough to exercise impulse control.
These people are not the majority of human beings, they’re more like animals in terms of how they exercise reasoning.
In saying that, this means they CANNOT BE REASONED WITH. Whining to these people and chastizing them with your laughable marxist, reality defying logic is not going to change the fact that they will feel compelled to act upon their low functioning stimuli. NO AMOUNT OF CRYING AND STOMPING OF FEET WILL PREVENT THIS.
So yes, not dressing like a slut is probably a good idea, in much the same way that running through a dark alleyway with a hundred dollar bill hanging out of your zipper is a bad idea. Or slathering yourself in honey and running through a pen of hungry dogs.
Stop whining and bitching about it, and don’t blame the messenger.
*LIKE*
If you disagree with this guy you’re a communist. No explanation necessary.
1) Use common sense. If I am wearing a bikini on a subway at midnight and is strutting around, how can I have the same likelihood as someone dressed conservatively?
2) The police is not making excuses for rapists. He just worded himself really poorly. What I think he’s trying to say is:
Rape is inexcusable.
Someone is raped every year.
Don’t dress extremely provocatively to avoid that someone being you, since by the time you’re raped, it’s too late for the police to protect you.
Is that wrong?
Those that disagree with this statement, why don’t you go test it out. (Meaning do some research) have one dress appropriately and the other slutty and then observe the male in who they will look at first. Then come back here and let us know your results.
Aw, you think that’s a valid experiment. That’s adorable.
Your patronization of a person making a completely cogent and “valid” point about the heightened attention one is likely to receive by dressing provocatively, only illustrates that you have nothing of value to add, respond with, or counter upon.
In other words, you know the suggested experiment IS, in fact, valid – therefore, you dismiss it with your arrogantly patronizing attitude. The suggestion would (in theory, of course, since neither I, nor the person suggesting it has actually conducted such a test) absolutely show that provocative dress gets more attention than conservative dress (and you know it does… in the same manner that you cannot take you would definitely notice a naked person in the middle of the street upon which you reside).
This “valid” point furthers the notion that, if a rapist wouldn’t have noticed a woman in conservative dress, he certainly is “more likely” to notice a woman in provocative dress — and erotic visual stimuli is one of many triggers that a rapist acts upon.
So… this may be “adorable” to you, but for the less-arrogant among us, it’s quite sensible.
Hypothetically, it would show that provocative dress does get more attention than conservative dress. I’m willing to admit that as likely.
How does that translate into likelihood for rape, or alternately, how does it demonstrate that conservatively dressed women won’t get raped? What if they’re the only one on the street and it doesn’t matter how they are dressed?
Even utilizing the flawed logic you share, how could you possibly think two women going out with subjectively decided standards for clothing could be a big enough data set for a (wait for it) valid experiment? Do you actually know how to conduct experiments whose results you can respect and reproduce?
Could we assume among myriad factors that the style of dress was the only significant difference between these women? Using your logic, who would be raped: an overweight, asymmetric-faced woman dressed like a slut, or a conventionally attractive woman in a snowsuit?
You say yourself that erotic visual stimuli are one grouping of many “triggers” — first, we cannot expect by exercising our rights that we are going to trigger one of many different types of criminals based on their instantaneous stimulus-reaction line of thinking; we can’t live in society thinking that nobody out there can control themselves and thus we must adopt a bunker mentality. A look does not necessarily lead to rape, and thus to utilize the logic that “what gets noticed will get violated” is completely ridiculous.
For example, Missy never gave a location to try her “experiment,” assuming that anywhere you go a look would translate to rape provided the “looker” didn’t fear any consequences at the time… but we all know that even if you or I looked at a naked person in the middle of the street, that rape wouldn’t come to mind. So if she’s using ordinary men like us as guinea pigs considered psychologically similar enough to rapists, she’s got another thing coming.
I hope that sufficiently demonstrates to you why the test isn’t valid or scientific. She may make a point that was cogent, but was not entirely relevant to the true nature of the discussion. I also said it was an invalid EXPERIMENT, even if the phrase attached to it could make sense isolated from its context.
As for me having nothing of value to add, respond with, or counter upon… have you even read anything else I’ve posted? You could gather my opinion and statements of fact from there.
I might be arrogant, but I’ll be damned if I’m not also right. Try to convince me otherwise.
I’m somewhat mortified by the notion of having to explain this… but here goes. I have an absolute “right” as a citizen to leave my wallet stuffed with cash lying on the front seat of my unlocked car in the middle of Queens, NY. If I didn’t leave my wallet in such a manner, the criminals wouldn’t have given it a second look.
[...] The following information is from SlutWalk Toronto: On January 24th, 2011, a representative of the Toronto Police gave shocking insight into the Force’s view of sexual assault by stating: “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized”. [...]
The last few comments infuriate me. How a woman dresses has NO relation to what happens to her- but it does relate to what happens next. If we as a society say that because she was in a short skirt, at a party, drinking, at a bar, let a guy walk her home, etc then it wasn’t ‘as bad’ when she is assaulted than if she was wearing a turtleneck and baggy pants and was grabbed off the side of the road, we’re telling men that not listening to ‘no’ is the best way to rape- because they know they won’t get in trouble. AFTER ALL, SHE WAS ASKING FOR IT.
And that’s the problem. i was raped in uni, multiple times, by someone i thought of as a friend. You can be raped by someone you know, you can be raped even if you’ve had consensual sex in the past, and you always, always always can say no at any point. What is this jr high blue balls bullshit? ‘Oh, she dressed like a skank and danced with me and let me buy her a drink and maybe even kissed me CLEARLY we were going to have sex and that’s that’. What this officer should have done is express to women they can ALWAYS say no, and to men that they HAVE to listen. I think a lot of girls, especially young ones in uni, end up in situations they aren’t comfortable in because they think that once they’ve done x they can’t say no to y. and that’s just not true.
On the other side: I currently live in Qatar, a Muslim Theocracy where it’s illegal to show your shoulders (a friend got fined for wearing a tank top in her car last summer). It’s also illegal to drink (you need a special license to buy liquor from a regulated store, and bars check your nationality to enter), have sex out of wedlock, or live with someone of the opposite gender without a marriage certificate. Many women here where full abaya or even niqab, which includes a face veil showing only their eyes.
And people are still raped. In fact, the incidences of harrassment and assault are massive and unreported because we all know the ‘solution’ is to simply deport everyone involved. If a national is involved, you’re screwed- last summer, a Filipino maid was sentenced to jail time for aborting a baby she’d conceived after being raped by her Qatari employer. She had to have a marriage license in order to have the abortion, you see, but if she’d kept the child, she would have been deported for having illegal sex. More importantly, loads of women (myself and my friends included) have found ourselves in ‘iffy’ circumstances unable to report it because we know our behaviour will be judged more harshly than our attackers. Whether it’s a taxi driver, at night, pulling over to the side of the road and trying to crawl in the back seat with you, or making explicit comments or exposing himself, because it was late, you were white, he’d picked you up from a hotel bar, etc, or a guy in a club or at a party who will just not leave off touching, following and harrassing you, we all know we CAN’T go to the authorities. They will see the ‘bigger’ crimes of a girl in a skirt above the knees, or who’s had as little as a glass of wine, and you will get punished, or at least told off for ‘slandering’ a man. What can the men take away from this? That this sort of behaviour is acceptable and condoned and NORMAL. And when a boy learns he can grab a girl intimately, follow her around, and harrass her without consequences, next he’ll learn he can force himself on her. It’s an easy jump of learned behaviour and THAT is the cause of Rape, not how short someone’s skirt was.
The proportion of people who do not understand basic statistics and logic and value anecdotal evidence over logic perturbs me.
If a rich man is seen sporting gold chains on the streets of Oakland, does that make him a more likely target of robbery?
Are ugly women proportionally JUST AS LIKELY to be a victim of rape as attractive women?
Saying women covered head to toes, the elderly or children get raped all the time does not mean ANYTHING pertaining to the LIKELYHOOD of being raped. Study these two statements:
4.4% of rape victims are dressed provocatively
1% of provocatively dressed women are raped
0.2% of conservatively/normally dressed women are raped
Can these statements coexist? Of course! Hypothetically, under the above circumstances, women who are provocatively dressed are 5 TIMES MORE LIKELY to be victims of rape.
Logically (no anecdote or study so feel free to disregard), I believe the primary target would be the most attractive and the easiest way to judge this quality would be by how revealing her clothing is.
“If a rich man is seen sporting gold chains on the streets of Oakland, does that make him a more likely target of robbery?”
It would be less of an issue if the police departments of the world urged the rich to drive cheaper cars and avoid wearing suits every time you enter the city. It also presents an image that the police are reluctant to protect the rights and lives of citizens and would much prefer they scale back their freedoms instead.
“Are ugly women proportionally JUST AS LIKELY to be a victim of rape as attractive women?”
That is central to the debate here, and you’re asking it as a rhetorical question. The disagreement is a matter of opinion, because there are two equally cogent sets of logical statements in competition. Since you love logic, let’s do some formal logic.
Opinion #1:
1. Rapists victimize sexually attractive women.
2. Women who dress provocatively are more likely to be sexually attractive.
Therefore, women who dress provocatively are more likely to be victimized by rapists.
Opinion #2:
1. Rapists victimize vulnerable people.
2. Many people of varying ages, sizes, genders, et cetera are vulnerable.
Therefore, many people of varying ages, sizes, genders, et cetera are victimized by rapists.
Both make sense using formal logic. Logic, therefore, cannot be the source of the problem.
Moving on to statistics, I cannot really understand why you would fabricate hypothetical statistics that would prove your point if they were true. You say that “Saying women covered head to toes, the elderly or children get raped all the time does not mean ANYTHING pertaining to the LIKELYHOOD[sic] of being raped,” but neither does saying “it would be 5 times more likely if the numbers I quoted were true.” At least with an anecdote, you get a small pool of verifiable data as opposed to none. Are you just attempting to push people to do statistical math, but are unwilling to engage yourself?
Keep in mind as well that there are confounding variables in the report rate for rapes. How can we sure people of all demographics are reporting or refusing to report rape in equal proportions? Are conservatively dressed women less likely to report rape out of embarassment? Alternately, do women reporting rape claim they were dressed conservatively to reduce suspicion that they were “asking for it?”
“Logically”
Stop acting like the supreme arbiter of logic, dude. Your bias is clear as day, despite your appeals to objective sciences. You want to know what your opinion is?
“I believe[!] the primary target would be the most attractive /// and the easiest way to judge this quality would be by how revealing her clothing is.”
Right after the word “logically.” A double whammy. Not to mention one that implies you’d take Rosie O’Donnell in corset and garters over Heidi Klum in a snowsuit any day.
Ok seriously reading most of these comments really bothers me. NO ONE said women get raped because they dress like sluts .. So LEARN TO READ to all of you that keep saying “oh i’m hindu i got raped” or “oh i had my whole body and i got raped” … Rape must be terrifying beyond my ability to describe it but again, NO ONE said women get raped because they dress like sluts. The officer mentioned it as a TIP, a precaution. Of course a rapist would rape anyone they want, BUT NO ONE talked about RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE only… Sexual Assault does not equal RAPE you smartasses.. “Hey sexy” – Leave me alone “Hey cmon lift up your skirt” .. see thats sexual assault. THAT is what the officer was talking about. It’s so pathetic and stupid how people cry about this, if you honestly believe that not dressing like a SLUT is a bad TIP towards avoiding sexual assault then honestly i have no idea who’s butthole you came out of. This isn’t about RAPE and what RAPISTS want. It’s about everyday avoidance of any form of sexual assault. Dressing like a slut, beyond any intelligent person’s reasonable doubt, does provoke sexual assault.
Want to avoid rape? Don’t dress like a slut.
Fine. How about one more:
Want to avoid rape? Cut his dick off.
Offended? Good.
lmfao
Off-ended indeed.
Who cares what women wear? keep your hands to yourselves, perverts. Look but don;t touch or harass. When you see a beautiful wedding cake in the window of a bakery do you feel it’s your right to smash the window and steal the cake? Then why would it be OK to steal sexual contact with a woman just because she is decorated nicely?
Mary, thank you very much for posting actually, your facts are accurate but I disagree with SOME of your conclusion, because it is a slippery slope….in a way, this is what Sharia law when it comes to women argues…..men are wired for rape so you must “protect” women by blanketing them.
I want my freedom, so I err on the side of liberty for women.
I have my brains, and I personally tend to exercise caution in both my dress and carriage…..I walk “angry” or “crazy” in bad neighborhoods, maintain alertness, etc.
But the truth is rape is WAY more than one thing. It *is* what you cite here Mary, but it’s ALSO power trips by men who are assaulting others in a power-abuse situation. There’s no data here that suggests the heaviest percentage is all disadvantaged youth attacking because they biologically can’t procreate any other way……if 1 in 4 women is sexually assaulted in her lifetime, then that just can’t hold as the majority reason.
Two things are true;
1) It is smart as a woman to protect yourself in whatever ways you think could help, no matter whether or not it’s fair. That might mean wearing what you like and carrying a taser,….but whatever you feel is best for your situation, you do it.
2) The automatic “slutification” of all rape victims needs to fucking stop immediately. The assumption that you can ever “ask” for it unless you legitimately ASK for it and then change your mind and fuck up the safe word is a bunch of bullshit from cowards, both men and women, who won’t admit that if someone rapes a fucking 11 year old with his buddies, the FIRST thing YOU NEVER EVER THINK if you have a BRAIN is that it’s the 11 year old’s fault.
Some people are scumbags. Rapists are scumbags. Guys who claim most rape is “false & lies” are always the worst kind of closet peeping misogynists I know. Just cause your mom sucked doesn’t mean women everywhere are evil. Just like the fact that some men are rapist scumbags doesn’t mean that most guys aren’t truly decent, and would jump in a freezing river to save a kid or chase off a mugger. But if you’re a guy in between, and you’re going to go get drunk downtown and look at girls writhing in short skirts, and you don’t think you could resist grabbing one while she’s sloppy and sticking a dick in her while she’s saying no or struggling or even unconscious, maybe it’s YOU who should stay the f*ck home.
Don’t forget, as far as power goes Rape is used also a tool of war now. Are the women is Africa being raped by the thousands in front of their children by dozens of soldiers dressed too slutty for everyone? It’s 100 degrees, for chrissakes.
When we focus on catching and punish rapists and murderers and major corporate thieves instead of kids w/ pot and people parking too long downtown I’ll know my country is on the right track again.
Good luck Canada. Sounds like some of our stupid leaked over the border. My apologies.
I’m sure I’ll get some hate for this, but please read me through and think about this before you get angry.
It’s my belief that the idea that rape is about dominance and control is a myth; it really is about sex. Rape is a common method of procreating among many other animals and is most often employed by males lacking attractive qualities like strength and resources. If these males cannot get a female in their species to consent to sex they must and will resort to rape to carry on their genes. This is seen over and over again in many species, and there are even some species of insects with special appendages to help them rape. What I’m saying is that rape is rooted in animal, and human, biology. Just the fact that human men can sustain erection and achieve orgasm through non-consensual sex tells us that rape must be part of our biology; animal species where rape is not present do not have this same ability.
Setting aside the issue of dress code and what kind of people get raped for a moment, here are some statistics on rape:
* Around 88% of females raped are between the ages of 12-25.
* Around 90% of rapists are between the ages of 18-30 and most are socio-economically disadvantaged.
I know some of you ladies have been raped when you were clothed head to toe. I know we’ve all heard about both infants and women in their 90s being raped. But these are outliers; the vast majority of victims and rapists are in their prime child-bearing years. Moreover, the fact that most rapists are socio-economically disadvantaged is telling; these men are likely acting on instinct that pushes them to take sex from women because they might not be able to get it otherwise. We all know that doctors, lawyers and rich men have raped; men with girlfriends and wives who have sex with them regularly also rape. But the numbers of these men are swamped by a majority of male rapists who are in fact lower on the food chain. These data would support an evolutionary/biological basis for rape as a strategy for disadvantaged males to procreate, and the driver for that strategy may be an instinct in the male brain.
My suggestion is that the role of testosterone and instinct give men a biologically-motivated propensity for rape; it is of course up to them as human beings to subdue these urges. However, as ‘civilized’ a society as we like to think we are are, we must remember that humans are still animals with instincts. Much research has shown that rapists have an unusual inability to admit to their crimes and they often think of themselves as the victim of a society where women are too sexy yet too unattainable. Research has also shown that jail-time and rehabilitation have little effect on a rapist; once released back into public they will rape again.
We may think we as women have the right to wear nothing but a thong in public and should not be raped, but the issue of rape isn’t really about what’s right or wrong, is it? It’s about not being raped. Short of being chemically castrated, these men may be incapable of change. I’m not suggesting that they are to be excused or that the victim should be to blame, but we are all responsible for our own wellbeing, and if one of those ways is to drastically reduce (88%) our chances of being raped by downdressing our status as a fertile female, we should consider it.
To finish, we’d all like to believe that we have the right to dress as we want and be safe, but nobody really has any rights to safety, do they? When a bird leaves her nest for food she has no idea if all her chicks will be gone and dead by the time she comes back; a mouse has no idea if there will be a snake waiting under those leaves. We are ALL responsible for ourselves and to not take what precautions we can against harm is just folly.
I appreciate this, Mary, as an articulate, rational, and well-evidenced claim in support of the notion that fertility and sexual attractiveness play a seemingly apparent role in rape as a biological function of animals.
I have some problems with the data and assumptions, but what I’d rather do is assume what you’ve said is completely true and that rapists behave along those lines. I’d like to extrapolate on that a little.
We know that men are sexual animals with lustful desires, and we’re assuming for the purposes of this argument that rapists assess their victims in a hierarchical manner of preference, tending towards fertility manifested in “attractiveness” or overt female displays of sexuality.
We can also posit that rapists, indeed, most creatures seeking to procreate, will “take what they can get” if their preferred choice is unattainable (stronger and unconsenting, protected by alpha male, etc). This would explain, under your conditions, why “outliers” are raped as well, and explains instances of homosexual rape in prisons or boats where women (‘preferred’) are inaccessible (although this is somewhat invalidating to the procreation thesis).
Now, the question remains: would clothing choice stop or drastically reduce chances of rape if clothing is, as you say, the trigger and the incentivizer? I would say perhaps, as on the simple hierarchy, you would demote yourself in terms of rapist preference. However:
-How would this affect preference measures for a man who a woman wants to sleep with? Would her chances be reduced?
-If a segment of women decided to dress more conservatively in order to deter rape, would that eliminate prospective rapes or shift them to commission upon those who still didn’t dress conservatively?
-If the entire populace of women decided to dress more conservatively, is there a threshold where a rapist will be deterred from raping at all, or will rapists simply continue to rape the least conservative of the conservatively dressed? Will conservative dressers still receive the “88%” target benefit if everyone dresses conservatively and thus raises the average and lowers relative differences?
-If the entirety of the female populace dressed in the most conservative fashion possible, would rape cease to exist, or would it be understood in terms other than revealing attire?
Assuming as before that rapists will rape who they can, and taking into account your claim that rapists select for fertility/attractiveness when they can, we need to look at whether or not rape would be prevented as an act in general using the cop’s suggestions or whether it would simply transpose the potential unto other women, something I’m sure no woman would wish upon another.
I don’t think jeans and a baggy sweater would save women from rape in a culture where all women wear jeans and baggy sweaters. This is the root of the problem and the reason why we should not assume that freedom is not worth the risk. We’ve seen that attempting to buy security by remaining silent about one’s religious or political beliefs doesn’t work; one loses freedom and eventually, predators will come for you anyway. First they came for the sluts, and I said nothing, for I was not a slut…
If we feel a moral imperative to stop fanatical killers from murdering practitioners of a certain religion, regardless of our personal feelings on that religion, how can we ignore the compulsion to stop rapists from supposedly targeting scantily clad women? To do so would be to concede that rape happens because women exercise freedom, and that to avoid it, they should stop being as free. During the Holocaust (I apologize for the cliché references) Jewish People were the main targets, but the “outliers” (homosexuals, black people, Sinti + Roma, mentally ill/challenged, political opponents). were thoroughly persecuted despite thinking they were “safe,” as Jewish people appeared to be primary targets. Hiding practice of their religion helped for a while, until searches intensified.
Women must not empower predatory entities by retreating into form-concealing outfits and hoping the axe falls upon her sister’s neck. We should not fall into the dangerous assumption that acknowledging a rapist’s power makes him weaker; rather, this acknowledgement gives a false justification of his behaviour, surrendering blame to uncontrollable temptation. In a world where all the ‘sluts’ are gone, we’ll be racking our brains trying to figure out why all these modest women are getting raped.
@”John”
You obviiously have way more time on your hands since you actually read through everything. I bet you didn’t even learn a single thing so do the world a favor and please don’t procreate!
Oh god I just read through all of the posts and I gotta say most of you are clearly unemployed or have waaaay to much time on your hands lol you people are writing novels on here it’s retarded!
Ha ha, made you read. That’s time you could have spent playing Call of Duty or bagging groceries at your place of employment… sucker!
Shame on you, Toronto Police Service.
Hello:
Listen up sisters!
Something has to be done about misogynistic Toronto seduction guru “Dimitri The Lover”. He endorsed Rob Ford during the election campaign (which also made page 3 of The Sun).
http://torontoist.com/2010/09/dimitri_the_lover_endorses_rob_ford.php
As a lesbian who has been harassed by her fair share of men, I’m shocked that this man gets away with his misogynistic behaviour. He calls his seduction method “Rasputin MindRape” (I’m not kidding). I spent the last few days compiling some links …
Hollywood producer Brad Goodman, who worked on Bruno and Borat, is doing a Dimitri The Lover documentary with trailer here (yes, Dimitri sexually assaults a woman on the street) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neW-_HJ4Vjc
Here’s a disgusting, narcissistic, delusional flyer he hands to women that reject his advances http://pics.livejournal.com/suspiciouslump/pic/00001pse
Here is his vile, misogynistic twitter page http://twitter.com/dimitrithelover
Here is a link to his borderline-illegal “Banned Animations” featuring his agenda. Many videos feature “FemiNazis” being sexually assaulted and murdered http://dimitrithelover.com/animation.html
Here is the web site for his “anti-metrosexual” (read “homophobic”) group http://torontorealmen.com
Here is more proof of his homophobia
http://www.dimitrithelover.com/toronto_real_men_a_note_on_homosexuality.html
And here is even more proof of his homophobia
http://www.dimitrithelover.com/toronto_real_men_homosexual_male_ban.html
Here’s an example of how he promotes sexually assaulting women on the street (just like he did to my friend)
http://www.dimitrithelover.com/toronto_real_men_october_2009.html
Finally, here is his main “seduction” (gross) web site http://dimitrithelover.com
Thank you sisters for fighting for women’s dignity and basic human rights.
Michelle
The officer said “I’ve been told not to say this…”
Because as well as being offensive, it’s just not true or helpful.
Whoops – I forgot to say – some rapists may figure out that if they rape an attractive, and/or attractively dressed woman, she may not be believed or sympathised with. That’s because we live in a rape culture, you know….
I’ll try and keep this simple for the slower learners…
When rapists rape attractively dressed women, they’re doing it because they want to assert their power over, dominate, and humiliate, said attractively dressed woman. The reason for that lies somewhere in the region of being angry (or dismissive of the idea) that she dares to think she is perhaps not entirely there for his use, or perhaps because she might want things to be on her terms. Essentially, how dare she think that she has the right to refuse, or look like that and get away with it.
Others may rape any woman (or man) they can find because they want to use, dominate, hurt and humiliate them instead. See the similarity?
Rapists do not rape simply because they’re horny. That’s not part of the desire to control, punish and humiliate. (Please refer to all the men in the world who live out their entire lives with their perfectly normal, healthy, even higher-level sex drives, even sex drives with kink, without ever forcing anyone to do anything.)
Plenty of rapists want to rape someone who is dressed conservatively, for a myriad of additional reasons, but the central one remains a wish to assert dominance over them, and/or vent their anger and hostility.
Sure, you can consider safety in general. My friends/coworkers and I will watch each other until we get into our cars after dark. But that kind of thing is realistically just about all you can do. Most rapes are committed by someone you know and thus trust, so it’s not as if you can realistically avoid getting into a car with your boyfriend, avoid letting friends into your house, or be ready at all times to use a weapon on your father.
Dressing conservatively does little apart from perhaps avoiding being noticed by a rapist in the first place (they ARE planning their rapes ahead of time). But since most rapists are someone you know anyway, the main thing they look for is opportunity.
No doubt some people will reply saying that only the strong, threatening type of woman would ’cause’ that kind of threatened feeling in a male, or that only a vulnerable type would seem like she could be dominated, and the list of behaviours to avoid goes on and on until every possibility is covered. How can women possibly get all of that ‘right’?
Note that no-one is telling men to avoid any kind of behaviour in order to avoid rape. Certainly no-one is telling men to avoid looking attractive or being assertive. Most rapists of men are heterosexual anyway, and even if they weren’t, attractive men are not objectified in the same way or seen as inferior, or (with the exception of some races) as getting ‘above themselves’. So what does that mean – that men should stop making other men angry, cover themselves up, and make sure they can try to defend themselves, in case another man turns around and rapes them?
Finally, please consider male-on-male prison rape. When you make jokes about that (which you probably do), what is it you are hoping for? PUNISHMENT. That someone will finally feel PUNISHED. That it will be horrible. That they will feel utterly degraded, as well as being physically hurt. This makes you laugh. Only small, weak men are in danger of being raped though, right? Only people who commit certain crimes should be punished in that way, though, right? (Unless there’s a group of rapists. In which case, people will laugh at that victim too – he thought he was safe!)
What it boils down to is this: do you actually think rape should be part of the punishment for anything, in a civilised society? (If your answer is yes, please don’t tell me, because although I know you probably do think that, it makes my head hurt to try to think down to your level.) Thinking rape is a fit punishment for ANYTHING is what allows people to think rape is a fit punishment for someone just being themselves, dressed however they like, yet not necessarily being automatically available to service you.
I’ve assisted literally hundreds (probably over 1000) of recent rape victims in the ER in my job. They are not dressing ‘like sluts’, I promise you. Of those who have not changed their clothes, most skew towards more covered up if anything. Others are wearing men’s clothing… because they’re men.
For some reason the past ten or so comments have completely ignored what everybody has said above them. I don’t know why you all keep ignoring the facts that they have posted OVER and OVER again. So I will state it again for you as clearly as possible.
RAPE and DRESS have nothing to do with one another. That’s right. You know why??? Because a HUGE percentage of rape victims know their rapists. Wearing a long skirt versus a short skirt will absolutely NOT help prevent sexual assault. Because rapists DO NOT CARE. If it’s sex they are looking for, you really think they are going to take the time to pick out the girl with the most cleavage showing?? NO.
Next time you all want to give your opinions, just don’t. Look up some real statistics on sexual assault and save us your ignorant nonsense. I don’t care what context that comment by the police officer was said, he ABSOLUTELY should have known better. A true ‘tip’ for helping to minimize rape would be to always travel in numbers, watch where you are at night, don’t take rides with strangers, don’t take drinks from strangers unless you have seen them be mixed (to prevent date rape). Dress just simply has nothing to do with your likeliness of getting sexually assaulted. And for all the victims of sexual assault that have posted their stories on here…I truly wish you never had to read these ignorant comments. I don’t care if you were bare ass naked, you are in no way shape or form responsible.
Research has shown that the way a woman dresses can give a man an impression of the kind of girl she is (and therefore, in the case of date rape, a man who is unable to interpret a woman’s cues may take her dress as evidence of her consent to sexual activity). The way a woman dresses CAN INDEED have an impact on her likelihood of being raped. It did not take me long to find an article like this on the matter (http://business.highbeam.com/435388/article-1G1-57786728/examination-date-rape-victim-dress-and-perceiver-variables)
This is not saying that a woman is responsible for being raped. This is the bottom line of this debate. A woman is not responsible for being raped. Saying that dressing less provocatively decreases one’s chance of being raped is NOT saying that if one chooses to dress provocatively anyway and is raped, they are responsible. Not even a little bit.
Now, the issue of using the word “slut” is something that I take issue with. Using this word is wrong because it is often used in a sexist and problematic way it demeans women for something that men prize themselves on. Additionally, it implies a passing of judgment, which is also counter to the message I believe the officer was trying to put across. So, I am not letting the officer off the hook completely.
But, if we rephrase what the officer said and replace “don’t dress like a slut” with something like “dressing provocatively can increase the likelihood that a woman gets raped,” the officer has given sound advice. When someone is traveling to a dangerous part of the world, they may be warned not to dress like they have money. However, if this person ignores the advice and wears jewelry, expensive clothes, and talks on a cell phone in the middle of the street, and gets mugged and stabbed, are they responsible for getting attacked? NO. Could they have decreased the likelihood of being attacked by not dressing like they have money? YES. The same thing applies in the case of rape. Is a women who shows a lot of skin and then is raped, responsible for being raped? NO. Could she have decreased the likelihood of being raped by not dressing provocatively? YES.
One of the comments (by a prof I believe) said that if women get raped based on what they wear, then completely covered women in the Middle East wouldn’t get raped…. umm yes they would. Rape happens to women who look like prostitutes and women who look like Mother Teresa, and everything in between. Nobody is saying that dressing a certain way will prevent you from being raped. However, it could lower the likelihood that you are raped, and that is what is important about this debate.
By no means to i agree with the ‘Fair Game’ person or the police officer’s comment because they were both rude and arrogant. Elderly women and women who are covered from head to toe are sexually assaulted as well. However I do agree with the fact that if your wearing a skirt so short people can basically see your hooch or a see through shirt or something the police officer would refer to as ‘Slutty’ I think you are more likely to become a target of sexual assault or harassment, by no means am i saying the victims are asking for this and by no means to i believe they deserve it. What i am saying is that i believe that women who dress a little more modestly or bring a change of clothes or a coat that covers up their ‘clubbing’ or ‘sexy’ outfit would be less at risk of sexual assault or harassment.
Again i am not saying that i think it is okay for a man to sexually assault or harass ANY woman, I am saying that in order to help protect yourself and prevent unwanted attention maybe wear the skirt thats a little longer or a coat that goes down to your knees. No i don’t think it is fair that women need to think like this, we should be able to wear what we want when we want but even in this day of age assaults happen and i don’t know about you but i want to do everything i can to protect myself.
I hope this police officer learns his lesson and is fairly prosecuted for his arrogant remarks.
Enough of this nonsense. I don’t really have much respect for police from the G20 but I must say I respect this cop for saying what needed to be said. This is the mindset of hundreds of thousands of people. It’s not outdated, if others say that they don’t understand the human mind and only what is politically correct on the surface. You guys have it wrong. You can’t compare rape in the middle east with rape in Toronto because of context. You think that because the end result, the woman getting raped, is the same, that both events are the same. You’re wrong. The difference in context is culture, the attitudes, and mindset, it can’t be generalized like you’re doing.
In applying this to university students there are many sluts and players at York, U of T and Ryerson, defining that “sluts” refer to women who sleep around alot, and “players” refer to men who sleep around alot. Do sluts and players verbally admit they’re like that? Most men are usually proud of it but won’t say it to the girl they want to settle down with. On the other hand most sluts wouldn’t admit they are, even when they’re sleeping around alot; but they’ll admit it to themselves non-verbally only, in the moments they’re alone with themselves.
Whether people should continue to be sluts or players is up to you and the society that advocates it. But it does exist and is part of the regular norms, those that don’t think so are living in a dream world.
You all have completely missed the point. The court system takes ALL responsibility away from the woman for EVERYTHING. Of course a woman has a right to dress any way she likes. However, if she dresses slutty, there might be consequences. Women now have all the rights but no responsibilities. Moral of the story: think before you act. Of course, it could never be true that a man can be provoked into raping someone. Women are perfect little angels and would never take advantage of a man for any reason.
Obviously the cop was right because this video proves it: http://vimeo.com/19843219 .. women just don’t want to hear the truth.
I also agree with the officer. A woman should consider the powerful sexual lure of her assets when choosing to wear clothes which reveal breasts and legs. It seems that if society says it’s fine for a female to wear something, then that stands beyond reason. It would be considered inappropriate for a woman to wear only tights and no skirt. But invent something called jeggins, which is essentially just a thick pair of tights, and everyone is wearing them.. because it’s ok to wear jeggins! Even though they reveal everything like a second skin. So have all these enraged people never looked at a girl’s bum while she walks in front wearing only a pair of these? If you get caught, you’re in danger of a slap.
When you’re in a girls company who is exposing a nice cleavage, even if you don’t look, you are ever aware of it.. the fact that you shouldn’t be looking at it. And let’s be honest, even the most polite of gentleman will have a glance when she is distracted.
If you’re girlfriend goes out wearing a low cut top, she is going to get hit on more than if she’s dressed modestly. Is this really the attention she wants? As for a single woman, does she want to attract men who are initially drawn to her breasts? My suggestion in both cases is yes and no, that there are two levels of consciousness at work. Because if she simply wants to look good, be noticed and get nice compliments, there are infinite ways she can dress to achieve this without being revealing.
Rape is totally wrong, and nobody deserves it. But everyone is getting on their high horse becasue the officer has touched on an issue here. The sexual tension which is created by the fact that women can wear what they want. It’s such a taboo in our society, hence this heated response.
By that officer’s logic, men reach a point where they ‘just can’t help it’ and mindlessly rape. In that case, men who lack self-control should be treated like dogs who just can’t help humping your leg. Except rapists actually cause serious injury so maybe we should treat men who rape like dogs who bite or kill. But just as a precaution, men need to wear shock collars and have a more intelligent escort with them at all times to make sure they don’t get out of line. Also castration would be a great way to “cut” down on rape occurrences (pun intended).
But men are humans, not animals. Whether they choose to use their higher brain functions to control their urges is their problem, not a woman’s, not a child’s, not another man’s problem. More often rape isn’t about sex anyway; it’s about domination. Explain how it’s not the rapist’s fault but that the victims are to blame, Copper from Division 31.
First of all, Fair Game is an idiot- didn’t you know that we women dress up for the sole purpose of making sex-starved men lose control- right, ladies?
First of all, rape is about POWER, not sex- sex is simply the rapist’s way of showing that s/he is in control. Some of my American friends have suggested cutting off the genitals of any man (or, in the extremely-rare case, woman) who rapes, though I don’t believe it does any good. Without them, they will just find other (and likely more-violent) ways to exercise their god-complexes.
2) Why does our society blame the victims, rather than the perps? I know several women who have been there, and their answer is usually something to the effect of “I was asking for it”. Uh, no. It’s disgusting, and totally sexist, to suggest that we women are responsible for the opposite sex’s inability to control their impulses; we shouldn’t have to be afraid to leave our homes, especially after dark, wearing whatever we want- a sexy outfit, or big boobs and a tiny waist, does not make someone a slut.
The onus should be on everyone not to rape, rather than men and women hoping that they don’t get singled out by some misogynistic psychopath. Rape is a crime; therefore, those who rape are dangerous criminals, and need to be stopped.
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One of my sisters goes to York U., and I’ll be very sorry if she was on-hand for this officer’s inane, thoughtless comment. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
Guess when I was 7 I should have learned the appropriate way to dress..then I wouldn’t have been sexually assaulted for the rest of my childhood…
Every situation is different but that does not mean that in some cases the clothes that someone wears could have saved there life. In your situation (which i’m sorry it happened to you was horrible and had nothing to do with the way you dressed) but in a lot of other cases that one piece of clothing could have made a huge difference in someone life and by denying that is not a good thing.
– “… the article is heavily biased to make you believe there is some hidden malice behind the police officers statment …”
No, rather it’s Hanlon’s razor that immediately comes to mind: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”
The whole sluts-can’t-be-raped idea exists solely in the mind of rapists and their fans, and they are only excused away by “tips” like these. The solution is not restricting the women’s clothing, but educating the men to understand that rape hurts “sluts” as much as it hurts virgins, that neither “expect” or “deserve” rape, and that both will be taken equally seriously by the law. I managed to understand this, so other men can understand it too.
– “I think the woman who dress in a slutt way is not being a good role model to the woman in today’s world.”
Well, I think “not being a good role model” for women, however you define it, is IRRELEVANT here. In my book, rape is not a justifiable comeuppance for ANYTHING, let alone “not being a good role model”.
– “I disagree completely with those of you that are trying to stop our “Freedom Of Speech”. We are all entitled to our opinions and views and no one and I mean NO ONE should stop this cop from speaking his mind just because you don’t like it.”
He’s not there to “speak his mind”. He’s representing the police force, and his speech reflects badly on both him and the force. More seriously, it encourages the spread of an incredibly dangerous notion that will weaken women’s security, not strengthen it. Last thing we need is some misogynist college men getting the idea that this attitude has taken root in law enforcement. I can already hear the echoes of high-fives across the frats and men’s dorms.
Yes he is there to speak his mind. someone asked for his opinion and he gave his. I don’t see how it reflects badly on them at all, what I see is a police officer trying to save your ass and being ridiculed for it.
If you ignore this, then you know what it is in you. Stop denying things that is obviously true. No one is saying that these people deserve to be raped however a lot of us are trying to prevent it from happening and the cop is right choosing your wardrobe can save your life!
People need to stop being offended over every little things because sometimes the truth hurts and people need to learn to deal with it.
“cop is right choosing your wardrobe can save your life!”
Funny, I never read that the cop alluded to wearing a suit of armour on the street.
“some of you are being offensive”
“People need to stop being offended over every little things because sometimes the truth hurts and people need to learn to deal with it.”
I’m going to take that as meaning you were the one who was offended and needs to stop, and that you need to accept what has been shown to you as the truth. Unless, of course, you can tell me the source of this magical “truth” that only you seem to know?
I think a lot of people need to stop denying this because it’s only going to get worse. If people get offended every time someone states there opinions when it need’s to be said then how are we going to fix issues that are occurring in today’s world?
I think the people today are to sensitive because there are others things in the world that need’s our attention then the outcry that has poured over this cop who is just trying to open people’s eyes that the way you dress can save you from being raped.
I don’t think this cop is degrading at all, I think the woman who dress in a slutt way is not being a good role model to the woman in today’s world. I know from experience, if someone came looking for a job and there was 2 woman, one dressing in a respectful way and another dressing “Slutty” who do you think will get hired more?
I disagree completely with those of you that are trying to stop our “Freedom Of Speech”. We are all entitled to our opinions and views and no one and I mean NO ONE should stop this cop from speaking his mind just because you don’t like it.
Guess what, time to smarten up and realize that if people deny this issue or ignore this issue or pretend that it does not exist, the only ones your fooling is yourself because this issue will never ever go away if people get offended over every little thing that is being said.
I’m happy to see so many women rightfully enraged about the officer’s comment as I’ve noticed commentary on other sites showed many men and women agreeing with the officer.
Here’s a question though… How many of you consider yourselves feminists? A recent story in the Toronto Star suggests that feminism is dead to our younger generation. That officer’s comment is the tiniest tip of the iceberg and yet people think equality has arrived. I’d love to hear your position: http://www.newsweasel.com/feminism-up-in-smoke/comment-page-1#comment-659
ALL OF YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT MUSLIMS OR PRISON GAURDS OR BEING RAPED BY BOYFRIENDS LISTEN UP!
This “tip” and that’s all it was even though the article is heavily biased to make you believe there is some hidden malice behind the police officers statment was made to UNIVERSITY STUDENTS and that is who the tip applies to!
This is not some global how not to get raped campaign! This is simply how UNIVERSITY STUDENTS can reduce the risk of sexual assault. Where at university a large amount of sexual assault occurs BECAUSE OF THIS REASON! When a girl dresses slutty and flirts with a guy and they guy takes it as an invitation for sex but doesn’t stop when told NO because he believes “she really means yes”
If you were a muslim or a security gaurd or your boyfriend raped you then I am deeply sorry for you, and no one should have to go through this and yes this wouldn’t have helped you at all. Problem is, it wasn’t supposed to be for you.
Also I would like to know what other tips the police officer made. I’m not entirely convinced the ENTIRE advice on how to reduce the risk of sexual advice made by an officer of the law during a lecture that was entirely dedicated to these types of tips ONLY involved the advice on not dressing like a slut and NOTHING else.
This article is HEAVILY biased, it contains only information of those who found the statement offensive and provides no additional information regarding the rest of the proceeding!
It also contains quotes like “I think the problem with the constable’s conduct was that he was blaming the victim,” which makes it sound like the officer was saying it was women’s fault when they are raped when this quote is simply a personal opinion of the person most offended by the statement. While the quote “One of the safety tips was for women not to dress like ‘sluts.’ He said something like, ‘I’ve been told I shouldn’t say this,’ and then he uttered the words,” shows that it was a completely neutral statement, I see no where that he said anything about women being to blame for getting raped. ONLY that by not giving the wrong signals can you reduce the risk of being raped (in a university setting)
The officer’s comments and those defending them make me tired to think we have to start all over again for women to be equal. Ugh!
So women should hide their bodies to deter rape? Joggers are prone to rape while fully covered so what could they do? Or in their own homes should women wear camouflage to avoid attacks?
Gentlemen, this is such old, tired, and weak thinking! When will you understand that women do not invite attacks no more than someone invites a burglar into their home?
The officer needs an education and re-assignment to some other task.
RE: Fair Game
A person with rapist proclivities is going to try to rape someone – it’s just a matter of with whom and when the opportunity presents itself. One way clothing CAN make a difference in selection of victims is when the rapist believes that society will guilt his victim into silence by – golly gee – saying that she was dressed like a “slut” and deserved it.
Extra clothing is hardly a hindrance to a rapist in the act, and he is otherwise used to lascivious mental undressing of women. The problem is not a woman’s dressing, but the prevalence of your rape-rationalizing ATTITUDE among the general population – an attitude that lets rapists believe they can get leniency for raping a “slut” or at the very least compound the pain and humiliation they deal said “slut”. Dump the attitude, and there will be no more targeting of “sluts” by rapists.
he does have a point girls should not dress like sluts period its degrating to women definatly gives off a trashy impression, and if this world is about impressions i bet he comes from a good family background to say somthing like that, im greek its only natual for us not to dress like sluts but classy and still sexy. does this mean we look like sluts.. no not at all i know that are disgusting dressing sluty girls out there that attract looser types of guys so go ahead and dress like a slut and you will more likely be a target. this is the truth and if society cant handle it then our world must be controlled by abunch of wussys
That police officer should be fired. He proved that he is untrustworthy, not a servant for the people, and discriminatory. He cannot be trusted with the power that a police officer recieves.
And yes, fairgame is a dick, but we can read his words and it proves the point that rape culture and misogyny are alive and well. Learn from him and his hatred and take action against it.
“Let’s be honest here, if there was 2 people walking down the street and one of them was dressed respectfully and the other wasn’t, who is most likely to get raped?”
Trick question: It’s the one who didn’t take Muay Thai classes. So the one who was dressed respectfully will get raped, because chances are she’s quiet and mousy and didn’t jump on the new trendy martial arts bandwagon like the hotties in yoga pants and sports bras.
“Am I believe the way you dress does not show who you are in a person?”
Not a chance. I personally rate the value of people based on their skills in grammar and logical argumentation.
“with dignity then to a person who Slutty!”
Case in point.
If you construct a sentence with no verb, then what is that basically saying to someone?
Girls wearing no underwear under their skirts probably have someone specific in mind, and nowhere did she sign a contract saying that in order to look attractive for someone in particular, she must consent to be raped by anyone who witnesses. Not to mention this whole line of accusations is grossly offensive to ugly/modest rape victims, as you’re basically saying it can’t happen to them.
If you and the cop are simply disgusted with the way little girls are dressing these days, fine, say that in your PRIVATE capacity as ordinary people. But for the love of god, don’t get sluts all wrapped up in your safety issues. Many talented sluts know how to take care of themselves just fine. It’s the timid, modest girl who has no experience in shady situations that’s truly in danger.
I disagree, with you completey.
We don’t know what that person has in there mind that’s my point. Your makin assumptions now. You don’t know what that person has in mind, all you see is a girl with no underwear.
I don’t see why we should have our “Freedom of Speech” denied because some of you are being offensive. So your entitled to state your opinions and views and we are not?
This is coming from a female by the way and yes if your walking down the street wearing no underwear where people can see your butt then yes people will judge you.
This cop was stating his opinion and shouldn’t be denied the right to state his view because some of you are being offensive.
This isn’t about being disgusted this is about the world today and I think some of you are missing what the cop is doing, he was actually trying to help people, to come to there senses and dress respectfully.
Your also twisting my words around. I never said that a person who dress slutty is consenting to rape, I think what I did say was, that a person is most likely to get raped if they were not dressing respectfully and it’s the truth.
I think this cop knows more then any of us do since he does this on a daily basis. Also just because you judge them on that don’t mean the world does not.
The world do judge people based on what they were and by people saying this isn’t true, your lying to yourself about how the world is today.
Oh missy, it’s been a while, hasn’t it? I’m sorry I never called until now.
“All you see is a girl with no underwear” – and from that point onward, it’s my responsibility to control how I react next. She does not need to help me control myself.
“I don’t see why we should have our “Freedom of Speech” denied because some of you are being offensive.” – You need to understand something about freedom of speech. It means the government cannot enact a law or imprison, kill, or forcefully silence you to stop you from expressing your opinion. It has nothing to do with me ridiculing you, because I am not a government employee (like the cop! hey!) and I don’t make the law. Your freedom of speech is intact; you have stated your opinion many times and the government did nothing. It’s a double-edged sword, though: I have freedom of speech too, and I am thus free to make fun of you all I like, provided it is not hate speech or inescapable harassment (which it’s not). Thus, what you are actually complaining about is that your opinion has been proven stupid and incorrect, and that you are now appealing to “freedom of speech” in order to score points by looking like you’re oppressed. You’re not, and I would love it if you expressed your opinion as many times as you like during the course of our conversation.
“So your entitled to state your opinions and views and we are not?”
How is it possible that you used “your” incorrectly, and then correctly, in the same sentence? Did you write this in a raging frenzy?
“yes if your walking down the street wearing no underwear where people can see your butt then yes people will judge you.” Clearly, you judge these people frequently. And you’re free to do so, even though it’s petty and ultimately fruitless. It still doesn’t mean that you or anyone else are allowed to rape those people.
“This cop was stating his opinion and shouldn’t be denied the right to state his view because some of you are being offensive.” – Time for another lesson on free speech (I know, right? People should never get people like me started). He shouldn’t be denied the right to state his view because I’m being offensive, and that’s not the reason. The reason is because he’s representing the police department in his public speech, and the PD is a government institution. Thus when he “stated his opinion” he also implicitly said “I’m saying this for all the police and the government I represent.” He spoke FOR the department as a representative, knowing he wasn’t allowed to, and did it anyway. As an ex-cop, he could make all the statements he likes on the matter, or he could just say it privately when off-duty.
“cop is doing, he was actually trying to help people, to come to there senses and dress respectfully.”
Or, you know, reduce police culpability by blaming the victim and claiming they’re making police work harder. The police need to work on the assumption that people are going to exercise their freedoms and need some security in order to fully enjoy them. It would be easier to police society if we made everyone behave a certain way, but what would we lose?
Also, the irony of you calling me the thought police while insisting that everyone dress “respectfully,” that police should dictate our behaviour, and that only your opinion is “the truth” is not lost on me. “Big Sis Missy” has a nice ring to it.
“I think this cop knows more then any of us do since he does this on a daily basis” – I’m sure he knows more than you do, but do you think he does statistical analysis on a day-to-day basis, or gets trained regularly on assessing the style of dress of rape victims? His training is based on protocol, none of which is designed to predispose the officer into thinking that way, which is dangerous because he cannot enforce the law in an objective, fair manner, and focuses more on saying “hey, you pretty much did this to yourself” instead of “we’re going to bring whoever did this to justice.” If he does this on a daily basis, he does a bad job every day.
“The world do judge people based on what they were and by people saying this isn’t true, your lying to yourself about how the world is today.”
And the world judged us differently on the way we dressed yesterday. Style of dress is fluid, and the fashion industry relies upon innovation for prosperity. The point is, we enacted rules to protect people from being harmed or punished for the way they dressed, so that even if society changed (I know you don’t like it, dear, but the times they are a changin’), we wouldn’t oppress others for being free and doing no harm. If we say that government should tell us how to dress, then what’s to stop them from enforcing the following: Laws against women wearing pants or other “men-only” items of clothing; Laws against expensive clothing that could make you a target of robbery; Laws against the wearing of religious items of clothing/jewelry/etc; Bans on leather due to its popularity among sexual deviants OR the fact that it could get you into a fight with a vegan… the list goes on.
The point is, people need to enjoy and exercise their freedom to choose their style of dress, or they have no freedom at all. Think about the ‘flappers’ of the 1920s: people like you probably called them ‘sluts’ or worse for daring to dress provocatively and contributing actively to the feminist movement. Without those ‘sluts’ it’s doubtful that you would be able to vote or enjoy the rights you so misguidedly cite today. I wonder, then, what ‘sluts’ must think of you, Missy, trying so hard to crush the foundation that better women before you built. They won freedom at a time when there was little, you belittle the freedoms of yourself and your gender, nay, species, in an effort to bring what you think is safety for women, but is nothing more than discrimination and empty folk wisdom. To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin,
“Any who would give up a little liberty for temporary security deserves neither and will lose both.”
Holler back soon, I could lie to myself and you about how the world is today all day. Or, you know, bring you out of your bubble and show you the “truth” you never understood and “how the world is today” from a perspective that isn’t as limited and uninformed as yours.
victim blaming much?
The only reason “prostitutes” are known to getting raped is actually not because of how they dress, it’s because of what they’re doing and how it makes it more dangerous.
BUT..on the otherhand, we also see women security guards in male prisons getting raped, or women prisons who are getting raped by the prison male GuARDS..and the last time I checked, I don’t believe women in prisons are dressed in any slutty way–whatsoever.
The stories of polomyst who force girls under 12 to have sex or marry a 60-year old man–the last time I checked, their bodies were covered–like the little house in the prarie days..
the last time I checked, the men who get raped by other men in prison also wear full body jumpsuits..umm..which takes a lot of “undoing” to get it off I’m assuming..
We also hear about elderly patients who have even gotten abused and sexually asuated while in hospital rooms!! What were they wearing??? umm…hospital gowns!! (is that so “slutty”)?
I don’t understand what the uproar is about this situation. The officer was correct about this. Let’s be honest here, if there was 2 people walking down the street and one of them was dressed respectfully and the other wasn’t, who is most likely to get raped?
Am I believe the way you dress does not show who you are in a person?
If you wear a short skirt with no underwear what is that basically saying to someone?
I’m not saying it’s right or that that person deserves to get raped but come on, you will get a better chance of not being raped if you do dress respectfully and with dignity then to a person who (Should I dare say it?) Slutty!
There is a lot of hot talk about rape being grossly underreported because of the alleged punishments women may suffer in reporting in Saudi Arabia (which was only one of my examples) but no figures to back these claims up. It appears as though I am the only person who did any kind of research to back up what I thought might be a valid argument. Is the source I used dubious? Possibly. But where are your sources? Are there any figures on how many rapes go unreported in Saudi Arabia? Forget Saudi Arabia, however, and apply the same focus to some other examples, especially some of the secular Islamic nations.
The point is that we cannot really know how many incidents of rape fail to be reported there, for whatever reasons, by virtue of that fact that they are unreported. We do not know how many rapes are unreported in any country, including our own. My source is a more concrete form of evidence than random anecdotal claims. Everyone MUST admit that the argument of the police officer and our friend who made the first post is a valid one. It may or may not be true, but it is still valid. So everyone quit telling the guy and the officer to recieve an education because you are only embarrassing yourself by exposing how narrow-minded you are. Just because you disagree with them does not make them idiots.
@ Alyssa T:
That was not what I was implying, but just for fun, I will pretend that in reference to “foreign observers” I was mainly thinking about the Chinese.
It is also important to note that the argument you think I am making is not actually the argument I am making. Please read more carefully.
I have enjoyed reading the stream of thoughtful and rightfully indignant responses to ‘Fair Game.’ But I thank ‘Cee’ for redirecting our attention away from an anonymous internet troll back to the police officer. The police officer was cautioned on this, but was so sure of the truth of his statement that he pushed ahead and stated it publicly statement and in his capacity as an officer. And this is the guy that the Police department picked to send as their spokesperson!
Is it any wonder that the disappearances of women, especially those most vulnerable, continue to go without investigation? If dressing a particular way means that one can expect to be raped, imagine what the officer believes should be expected by a sex trade worker, a homeless person, somebody addicted to hard drugs. Murderers are able to kill with impunity and we blame the victim. It receives little or no coverage in the bourgeois (corporate) media, but why should it since it is the victim’s fault?
I commend Bessner for coming forward and challenging the police publicly on this. However, I don’t think that we should be so quick to characterize the police force ‘professionals,’ as if the police are an organization that exists to ensure that equal individuals respect each others’ rights.
Without second thought an army of police was mobilized to protect the G20 leaders. Would they give presentations saying that if world leaders don’t want to be protested they should stop ignoring the demands of civil society and stop making the workers pay for the bosses’ crisis? When a strike is declared illegal by the bourgeois state, police are instantly mobilized to imprison and crack skulls as necessary. Would we hear police explain that bosses should avoid strikes by paying better wages and benefits (or even better–handing over ownership and management to the workers)? Obviously not! (Note: This analogy breaks down in that there is no logical connection of cause and effect between rape and attire, but you see my point.)
I would suggest that no apology is necessary from the police for expressing their political position. It was revealing. What is needed is the organization of workers’ power to smash the power of the special repressive forces of the state–clearly they aren’t there to protect us anyway.
“This police officer deserves a handshake and pat on the back for telling these girls to dress modestly!”
Actually, he deserves a hefty bonus. It’s going above and beyond his job to pontificate on matters of social hygiene and other things he knows enough to avoid reading up on.
“Too bad everything these days is scrutinized out of proportion and the thought police are lurking in the shadows making sure you say only politically correct things.”
What? Then where are all the police that are supposed to make sure women keep their form-concealing fatsuits on? Or protecting decent women such as yourself from the uncontrollable rapemonsters lurking the streets in broad daylight and making up half the country’s population?
“Obviously his freedom of speech was not allowed THAT day!”
The oppressive mob rule of the people’s socialist Eros-tocracy has silenced this poor civilian in his private capacity to speak his mind! Or perhaps a few loonies just think that a police officer shouldn’t be representing the whole department in a public speech about what he thinks about women but knew he shouldn’t say. But you and me, mitzy, we know that he should have gone further and talked about his feelings on gay marriage, abortion, welfare, popular music, television foreign policy, chinese food, and Harry Potter as a police officer, because then we know he has authority and that we should agree with him for our own safety and freedom from our own bad ideas.
“It all started with dumbing down the children in the classrooms, over the past few decades,don’t teach academics anymore, get them sexually orientated at age 8,9 and up, fill their heads with explicit sexual content by their teachers, corrupt them at a young age,”
Ah, second grade Kama Sutra class. Replaced “arithmetic,” or something, I think. I used to do really well, but as years went by, I got out of practice during a self-imposed sabbatical and my body’s flexibility proved too poor for a return to “Shiva’s Pretzel.” Then we watched demonstrations with our teacher and “Steve,” our TA. It was awesome, but I have to admit that our live-sex show education has to further penetrate our public schools in order to compete with Dutch and Scandinavian standards. My education in academics IS poor, however: I always thought that the second word in your name was spelled “wrangler” and that an ellipsis always looked like this (…) regardless of how long your dramatic pause was. Oh woe unto me and my mind-numbing, indoctrinaire’s education! If only I grew up in the golden age where we were schooled in factories, the idea of monkeys growing into babies was absurd, and we knew African people were mentally inferior, violent people because we haphazardly measured the skull size of the slaves we beat to death. Pity me, mitzy, I am a mentally deficient, sexually depraved manimal whose urges are fed continually by the machine around me.
“tell them to call police on their parents”
Not me! I was a good kid, I didn’t even cry after the third time daddy came home wasted and smashed heirloom china over mom’s head. You’d never do that to your husband, would you, mitzy? The way to a man’s heart is through his stomach, and if he’s not satiated, he’ll go nuts. He’s a gastronomical creature, that’s the way it goes. It’s a woman’s wifely duty to hit him with a sandwich and an old-fashioned or he’ll go out beating and raping any woman he sees. It’s not him, it’s you and the culture of sex we live in.
“don’t teach academics anymore” “ridicule the youngsters in the classroom in front of peers , if they don’t go along with the collective group’s way of thinking”
Your kids having a tough time with the rigid, conformist policies of math? It’s cool, getting finished with your work early and being free to do what you like after marking the other kids is conformist anyway, they’re not missing out.
“You’ve got a perfect controlled society…all politically correct.”
Ugh, disgusting. Let’s lead the charge to create a perfect controlled society that forces our women to be as concealed as possible and relegates sex to reproduction-only purposes. I like the whole “Freedom is Slavery and Slavery is Freedom” thing you’ve got going on for women; in short, lady, I like the way you doublethink.
“Then you wonder why girls and guys dress THIS way? There’s nothing good to choose from in stores anymore.”
I know, I was on my way to the local boutique to procure a cravat, puffy shirt, and dungarees for a box social on the morrow, and departed, bemused, clutching a pair of assless chaps and a too-tight shirt printed with words I cannot utter in polite company. The shame.
So we’re clear: We need to get all the women into burkhas ASAP so that even the ones on TV don’t inspire the male population to go out on the prowl for any woman. We need to repress female freedoms in order to secure the society from dominant males. Cops should make their personal opinion their professional opinion, and the less educated, the better. End the politically correct oppression of those who want to be free to oppress!
P.S. mitzy, I’d love to keep you chained up in MY kitchen, learning only what I tell you to. Your husband’s a lucky guy, but if he’s not strong enough, I might just have to steal you away and tell the cops he was asking for it by not having the means to shoot me as soon as I got onto the lawn. This, of course, is all dependent on the assumption that I don’t find you as a brilliant, if socially maladjusted, male satirist currently residing in his mother’s safe basement quarters.
It’s quite obvious that a logical principle in this officer’s assertion lies at a more fundamental level than our fabricated, tenuous, intangible culture of rights: the only way to deter a predator is to lack anything they might want. Don’t want to get robbed? Adopt a lifestyle of conspicuous poverty, and stay that way. Bully threatening to snap your bones? Beat him to the literal punch and have them all surgically removed. Afraid of evil terrorist assaults on your precious liberty, international standing, decadence, and military/economic superiority? Sweep them all away yourself with executive orders, controversial legislation, and defeatist strategems.
Oh, and when you’re preyed upon in seemingly increasing intervals after you’ve followed my advice, it’s not that the plan isn’t working, it’s that you haven’t implemented it in every way possible. You need to be devoid of ALL the temptations of the predator, because when he’s climbing in your window, snatching your people up, trying to rape them, you need to hide your kids, hide your wife, and hide your husband, ’cause they’re raping everybody out here.
Methinks this officer (as well as a-holes like “fair game” and “feminism sucks”) is the reason rape is so underreported and rapists rarely convicted. How are you supposed to go to the police for help when the police thinks victims are their own perpetrators?
That said, I read in egypt, where machoism and misogyny is very high, women who go to police for protection from sexual harassment/assault get assaulted by the very cops they seek help from!!
Be explicit in dress, goes hand in hand with conduct I’d say!
Guys as we all know are visual beings..getting aroused by what they see.There’s enough ‘eye candy’ out there these days to keep guys’ eyes popping for decades!.Then these guys will act out on some poor unfortunate woman or kid, who doesn’t dress this way..That’s the way it goes.
This police officer deserves a handshake and pat on the back for telling these girls to dress modestly!
Too bad everything these days is scrutinized out of proportion and the thought police are lurking in the shadows making sure you say only politically correct things.
Obviously his freedom of speech was not allowed THAT day!
What a dysfunctional society this has become. His remarks were blown way out of proportion and didn’t even deserve all this attention..He is a good cop!
Too bad they made him apologize.
It all started with dumbing down the children in the classrooms, over the past few decades,don’t teach academics anymore, get them sexually orientated at age 8,9 and up, fill their heads with explicit sexual content by their teachers, corrupt them at a young age, tell them not to reveal what they learn to their parents, tell them to call police on their parents, ridicule the youngsters in the classroom in front of peers , if they don’t go along with the collective group’s way of thinking… ,and teach them the art of debate in kindergarden, …………then watch what happens when they reach adulthood with all that solid preparation .
Make them believe all that crap. You’ve got a perfect controlled society…all politically correct .What a recipe for disaster. Then you wonder why girls and guys dress THIS way? There’s nothing good to choose from in stores anymore.
As a York Student Myself:
Out of all honesty, I agree with the cop although his comment was ignorant in a sense.
No one deserves to be raped regardless their choice of clothes etc but it IS a big issue that women expose their bodies and dress inappropriately therefore INCREASING the risk of a males getting the wrong idea.
Let’s be real, people are constantly advocating the need to be open and forward with the things in society (such as drugs/smoking/drinking) etc and I think dressing inappropriately SHOULD be on that top priority list. The cop just said it is as it is, no games or no evading the truth, just the blunt reality at hand.
So it may have come across as offensive, but the ultimate message was one of protection and true concern. That’s just my opinion.
@ Fair game and Feminism Sucks
“Fair game”…talk about a misnomer
The only reason rape is as pervasive as it is today is because people like YOU TWO supporting rapists and excusing them!! It allows rapists to remove themselves from blame because after all, the women (little girls, little boys, vulnerable animals, elderly people, etc etc) asked for it. Personally I think you’re both at best, a wannabe rapist and at worse, actual rapists because I simply don’t believe any normal man/woman could ever have such a stance on this issue.
Women in conservative societies, dressed EXTREMELY conservatively, get raped even more often than women in the west simply because they have less means for recourse. Why? because the men of those society think LIKE YOU TWO! Just like the case where a 14 year old girl got raped by her married cousin and instead of punishing the older cousin, they beat the girl to death for “adultery”.
For your information, women in burkas get raped ALL the time. By their own relatives, by strangers, by basically any male fast enough to get their hands on them because there is no punishment for the crime.
As for the comment on sluts, I for one don’t enjoy wearing overly skimpy outfits. But in a free society, women are/should be allowed to wear whatever we want. Even if a woman is sexually promiscuous, SO WHAT?! As long as it’s between consenting adults, it’s none of our business!!! Men who sleep around aren’t seen as inviting rape (who wants to rape charlie sheen?) so why the double standard for women?! If you have a history of shopping at a certain store, does that mean from now on, ANY store can just take money out of your bank without your permission?
For the love of……….I’m surprised idiots like you two even know how to use a computer to spew your ridiculous beliefs on the rest of us! keep your verbal diarrhea to yourself!
PS
One day, when out in your everyday life, it IS perfectly possible that some big scary man will take one look at you and think you’re asking for it too….wouldn’t YOU like it when the rest of us laugh in your face for “asking” for it.
While I think that most of us agree that “Fair Game” lacks both the knowledge or sensitivity to comment on this subject, there is one positive action resulting from his comments.
His comments have incited passionate educated FACTUAL dialogues around the subject of rape. I feel this demonstates that the York Community stands firmly behind the victims of sexual assault and that as a community we are focused on making York a more safe environment for everyone.
As a victim of rape, I can assure you that it has nothing to do with sex. It is an act of violent rage committed by those who feel powerless and need to assert “control” over someone. All kinds of people, female,male,old,young,all races & religions have been raped. It sounds as if you and the cop have either already raped someone or have an overwhelming desire to rape someone. Please seek help to learn how to control yourself.
The only person to blame for a rape is the rapist.
In response to this egregious event, we are MOBILIZING.
We have begun SLUTWALK TORONTO. We are gathering info, resources, thoughts and plans.
You can LIKE our Facebook Page: http://facebook.com/SlutWalkToronto.
Twitter: @SlutWalkTO
Slutwalktoronto.com coming soon.
Time to make some noise and show that our “Protective Services” are making us feel anything but protected.
they need to fire him, like no ands ifs or buts, drop his ass please.
I feel like you people are missing the point of the original commenter here.
But then again, since when do people on the internet listen properly?
He was making an example, he did not even state he believed it to be 100% true. You’re twisting his words and assuming he meant it for every rape scenario ever.
Which is entirely wrong.
The tense he uses for his example refers to the case listed in this article.
Really guys.
Really.
You’re an idiot. Shut up.
I find it really interesting that this cop is saying this at York University – a place where a few years ago, young women were raped at night because someone broke into their dorms while they were sleeping. Were these women dressed like sluts as they slept?!! Were their PJ’s so sexy and alluring that it gave off a scent which was carried outside of the building and which enticed their rapists into entering the dorms? Did everyone forget that situation?! Here is a clear example where this cop’s safety tip is enitrely ridiculous. Yet, he had the guts or rather the stupidity to say this to the York population.
Wow, in one comment you exhibited, sexism, homophobia, strong stupidity, and horrible grammar. You’re a star. We should obviously all trust you.
I am SO happy to see that everyone is chastising this “Fair game” idiot for basically saying rape is ok against women who deserve it. Basically he/she is implying that attractive women deserve to be punished for their appearance. However, what about women in earlier centuries? Showing skin has only become popular in the last 100 years. Are you suggesting that rape is only a product of the 20th century?! As I have studied this in my Sociology class, criminology examinations show that there are a variety of excuses offered as to why convicted men raped women. Some say they believe women actually enjoy it; some say that “no” really means yes; some had an issue with their wife or girlfriend and thus, wanted to find any woman to take their anger out on; some blamed it on lonely upbringings, etc. As we can see, these rationales are due to stereotypes in rape culture, as opposed to the women themselves. In fact, I have never come across one that said it was due to a strong sexual appeal. As many have pointed out, rape is about power. They rape to feel a sense of dominance. I thought most reasonably intelligent people knew that… it’s pretty basic stuff. Another thing that we studied is the idea of rapists denying any responsibility due to victim blaming. (This is often done with the rape of children). For example: The rapists justify rape by saying that the young child was actually the one being seductive and that they would only do what the child permitted. In this way, they refute the identity of the rapist and neglect to feel they have done anything wrong. SO… basically, “fair games” attitude is more alike with rapists than with the rest of society. Congrats on that. I must ask you then, would you say that boys also get raped for being too sexy? Or is it only a female thing. If so, why do young boys get raped half as much as young girls? What about the rape of men in jails? Are those men just too sexy to contain their urges? How about men who constantly wear their pants down to their knees? Aren’t they presenting themselves? I have a feeling you would say it’s only fair game for women being raped which just shows your disturbing and biased ideologies. Also, most rapes are done through people you know. (Ie: a family member, boyfriend, friend, colleague, etc). So it is more about convenience than anything else. An uncle may rape his niece because he has access to her. (For lack of a better word). Contrary to popular belief, most rapists do not run around raping women they see off the street. Lastly, since you think the middle east doesn’t face rape (ha), I would like to cite a stat. (By the way, where have you been when stonings of women because they were raped were reported in the papers ?) A 2008 study reported that 83% of women in Egypt report occasional sexual harassment. It is so common that the first two subway cars of each subway are designated only for women, in an attempt to shield them from sexual aggression. Yes, sexual aggression happens anywhere, to any woman. If you think that only slutty women get raped, then why take precautions to protect the rest? For example, do you let your daughter walk around at 3 in the morning by herself? What about your mom or sister? I am assuming you would never consider the women in your family to be sluts so they obviously a free from the potential of an attack. Thus, you should let them do whatever they want. Your daughter should be able to come home late by herself. Your mom does not need an escort in a bad neighbourhood. And why shouldn’t your sister go to a strange man’s party? Since they are not sluts, they are in no risk of getting raped. However, I am willing to bet money that you would still demand precautions for the safety of the women in your life; we all do. And why? Because we all know that any female can be raped. At the end of the day, I don’t know how anyone could be so stupid and so ignorant as to add to the pain of rape victims. I have spoken to victims throughout my studies and many have said that one of the aspects that prevent them from moving on is this ridiculous stereotype that rape is the woman’s fault. As if a victim doesn’t have enough to deal with, she also has to face idiotic public rhetoric. To willingly contribute to any of the emotional destruction that she is already going through is absolutely sick. And you would know that if you ever spoke to these women or children. There should not be blame, there should be support. Blame is based on opinion, not fact. If these morons actually did their research on rape, they would know why rape is so prevalent. READ sociological articles, read psychological articles, read gender studies articles!! There has been a ton of renounced work published on this.
The only good thing here is that so many intelligent people spoke out against the misogyny and idiocy of the police officer and the first commenter.
Sense & Sensibility -
“If you want men to respect you don’t dress like a slut”
1) you’ve set it up that all women set up their day, their wardrobe, their fashion choices based on earning the favour, attention and respect of men – not sure that women believe that their existence should be based on the judgment of men
2) “dressed respectably” – i think policing what people wear and their wardrobe is outside of the jurisdiction of what you can do to another person – unless you’ve started going around with a badge calling yourself the fashion police. as well “respect” has changed endlessly depending on historical context, cultures, religious mores etc etc etc. who’s going to define what’s respectable? thus who’s opinion are we saying is the “right” and most important one?
3) you’ve set rape up as something with a relative chance of happening – making it an inevitability that we have no control over
4) you’ve conflated “respect” with “rape” – those are two VERY different worlds of behaviour, attitude and interaction
…thus, actually, its really NOT that simple.
Edgar – it looks as though you are in need of a little “education” yourself.
You seem to reveal your own biased point of view when you mention “foreign observers”. Setting up the “Foreign observers” in the east, which MUST imply that these observers are western – you give them the power of being able to assess a situation and judge its truth. Sorry, last time I checked ultimate knowledge of truth wasn’t something in the DNA of Western aka white people. From that point on, the “knowledge” you are using to back your argument can be refuted as it ignores systemic sources of erasure and also cultural sources.
the idea that statistics are the ultimate truth is questionable – yes people are citing stats here which disprove this officer’s notions – but we need to look at stats from a critical point of view.
for one thing, we need to look at the repercussions for a woman who reports rape, both legal and cultural.
this complicates the rape statistics because we have no idea how many ACTUAL rapes and assaults go on, and how many are “reported” because of the environment they are situated in.
as well, as any layperson’s knowledge from PSYCH 101 will tell you – we have no idea HOW these studies were collected, what the risks were for participants, what language was used, etc etc etc. so many factors go into collecting data.
secondly – i’d like to see your statistics and data which proves your assertion that rape is going to “occur no matter what”. I’m not sure they have found an inherent rape gene within DNA that causes all heterosexual men to have two settings: “rape” and “not rape”, and that a woman’s behaviour or clothing will turn this switch “on” or “off”.
I think we’d like to give heterosexual men a little more credit, and forgive me if my ego leads me to believe that humans are beings with conscious awareness and ability to make decisions; which, in the rare case that there WAS a reflex to rape, they would be able to exercise in order to prevent it.
as well, I think you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone willing to admit that they “condone rape”. The issue is not that of condoning rape, but rather the proliferation of a set of stereotypes about womens bodies, about the aggressiveness of men, etc etc etc archaic notions that are all done very subtle through systemic means and through institutional forces such as the police.
When a person walks into the lion’s den, what do you think might happen? We are a civilized society that has greatly advanced in the definition of social right and wrongs. But come down to it, primitive instincts, our sexual nature and the natural desires that is part of our being alive makes even the most educated and divine member of the society, potentially vulnerable to temptation.
The police officer made a point, however harshly he expressed it. They, the law enforcers, has to experience exposures to a lot of negative domestic incidences. I feel that in the end, his comment was intended to supporting the safety of the people. Please also consider that “indecent exposure” or just simple beauty can be met with reactions much less than rape. Harassment and or unwanted attention is a common “compliment”. The police member needs a bit of PR training, but he is doing is job…
Your OWN HOME is hardly the “lions den” and yet women get raped in their own home all the time.
Since when is harassment/unwanted attention a “compliment”. Do you even have the most basic understanding of english? Harassment indicates it is UNWANTED. Unwanted=unwanted. What part of that do you not understand?
I think they need to administer IQ tests before they allow people to post online.
@Shirley, it doesn’t support the safety of the people when there is no proof that what he said is true (dress has never been correlated to rape frequency, and the majority of rapes are perpetrated by people the victim know, in their own homes). In fact, his comment harms the people he is supposed to be helping because victim shaming is the number one reason rape is such an under reported crime.
[quote]THERE IS Z-E-R-O CORRELATION BETWEEN RAPE AND HOW SOMEONE IS DRESSED
[/quote]
Citation please. Writing it here does not make it so.
@Evan, actually the onus is on the other party to reveal what sources they are using to say that there IS a correlation between rape and dress. I can’t find the research to support this, so I must assume, until there is such research, that we have never been able to show a correlation between sexual assault and dress. Also, let’s remember that people who espouse the “don’t dress slutty” philosophy aren’t just correlating rape with dress, they are saying that certain forms of dress CAUSE rape. It’s an even bigger leap from correlation to causation, and again, the onus is on them to show the research for this. (There is none.)
I agree with the police officer. Dressing like a slut may or may not be the reason that rape occurred but it certainly does lower the chance if you are dressed respectably. While it may not have been in the most PC way he was giving good advice. If you want men to respect you don’t dress like a slut. it’s really that simple.
@nonsense&insensibility
What about old women who get raped? Horses and dogs that get raped? What about children that get raped? What about rapists who break into people’s homes in the middle of the night? what about male sex tourists that rape little kids in other countries? What about soldiers that rape female soldiers dressed in asexual fatigues?
wow someone here is really dumb and it sure isn’t me…..
@Sense&Sensibility, Well, dressing “respectably” would lower the chance of rape…except that it doesn’t. There isn’t any data out there to support this. The majority of rape victims are victimized by people they know. Dress has never been correlated with rape frequency. It’s wrong for a police officer to perpetuate myths that not only don’t help people, but actively harms them by decreasing the likelihood that they will report a sexual crime because the victim is blamed for the crime.
Successful troll is successful?
Some morans just like being controversial on the internet tubes.
@ the dumbasses who support the even more of a dumbass cop
Let me SIMPLIFY this for you
THERE IS Z-E-R-O CORRELATION BETWEEN RAPE AND HOW SOMEONE IS DRESSED
THIS IS CALLED A S-O-C-I-E-T-A-L M-Y-T-H that SUPPORTS RAPE CULTURE
GET IT?
NO?
There is NOTHING linking COSTUME, CONVENTIONAL ATTRACTIVENESS, HEALTH, FITNESS, WEIGHT OR ANY OTHER PHYSICAL TRAIT with RAPE (COMPLETED OR ATTEMPTED)
GET IT?
NO?
CONGRATULATIONS YOU HAVE CROSSED THE LINE TO COMPLETELY USELESS FOR THE WORLD…GO DIE!
Aside from the heated debate/race/religious views/gender…..the lesson that should be learned is that we as individuals should do our part to avoid unwanted attention. This maybe putting away our cell phones in unsafe areas or even taking out the headphones when walking towards lets say the village. The police officer did come off strong and to be honest who really wants to hear about another sexual assault victim? Lets do our part. We have eyes and ears! If some of us know we dress a little inappropriate perhaps try covering up. Style and sex appeal doesnt come from taking clothes off regardless of how you want to express yourself. Hopefully we can make the change and protect ourselves.
side note: do you want to know how they nabbed a sexual predator? a female officer impersonated a york university student. the officer dressed provocatively and thus lured the predator. this is a significant indication that the way you portray yourself plays a role in observed sexual assualts. for those who are dressing to express themselves in various ways should be aware what comes in hand with that particular sense of style.
@arr
Yes, because one case study is enough data to make broad and sweeping generalizations about an endemic societal problem. It couldn’t possibly be because the officer was simply female and alone? You imply that the rapist would never have gone after a decoy who was female, alone, and dressed conservatively. Oy vey!
Try some more data points:
Utah State University Sexual Assault and Anti Violence Information:
Myth: Rape victims provoke the attach by wearing provocative clothing.
- A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only
4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part
of the victim. In murder cases 22% involved such behavior (as simple
as a glance).
- Most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing.
- Victims range in age from days old to those in their nineties,
hardly provocative dressers.
Utah State University
http://www.usu.edu/saavi/pdf/myths_facts.pdf
Personally I have a strong desire to assault any guy who wears skinny jeans. Not my fault. It’s their fault.
*ROLLS EYES*
I really honestly believe it is the same 2 people making the same ridiculous comment regarding how sexy clothing=asking for rape.
“asking for rape” is a freaking oxymoron. rape by nature is committed against a victim against the victims will. How do you ASK for something you DON’T want?
I really really believe it’s the same 2 people making the same ridiculous comments under different names.
And more importantly, none of these proponents of “sexy clothing=deserving of rape” have explained how this logic applies to babies, little girls, little boys etc who get raped.
What about men who do sex tourism in developing countries and rape little children there? Are those kids asking for it too?
Walk down the street and ask any person, male and female, and they’ll tell you rape is wrong under every circumstance and has no correlation with a person’s appearance. Only online, where trolls get drunk off their anonymity, do these ridiculous comments come out.
Fair game is absolutely right. Think about wut rapists are trying to achieve….to get some poon to satisfy wutever sick thing inside them thinks they are able to achieve it by unconsentual terms. I can guarantee u that if u lined uP a Muslim woman, a Hindu woman a classy western female, a stripper and a hooker in front of a rapist and let them choose, I’ll bet my life saving that the rapist would pick the ripper and hooker before any of the other 3. You ignorant ppl gotta use ur brains a lil bit. Fair game may be uneducated or wutever but the individual is correct In his statement made that all of u are bitching about. That wAs the bluntest answer on the comments section and y’all just can’t handle it. Obviously there are situations where the comment may be wrong, and that cuz not every rape scenario is the same. But the individual is correct and kudos to the cop for telling it how it is too. I spit on these idiots fro. York that demand an apology and a written explanation. Wuts wrong with u ppl, have u not noticed the degrading vision of society as to where now it’s normal to be gay, sex sells and women use there looks to achieve there goals… Get the f*ck outa here I’m with fair game and the officer, ppl whom aren’t afraid to speak the truth. So keep dressing like sluts and enjoy ur rewards.
My opinion of you is very low and not just because of your irrational opinion but because you can’t spell OR form a coherent sentence. That tells me your opinion is inherently unimportant, which means YOU’RE unimportant. Your comment, spelling abilities, and writing abilities tells me you’re an inbred hillbilly with no education.
There…..doesn’t it suck to get judged for no reason?
But you asked for it by appearing like an idiot.
@Age, did you…did you even read any of the many helpful comments summarizing and linking to all the data about rape refuting exactly what you just said? This post is so bad it makes me despair for the human race and contemplate the meaninglessness of existence. I am going to have to flout my gay pride in public and read all of Judith Butler to make myself feel better again.
I’d rape the classy Western female and the Hindu and the Muslim woman, provided there were no legal consequences. The stripper and the hooker are well-used, and pose a substantial risk to me for STDs.
Classy Western Lady? Sounds like a fun target, one who’ll squirm. Plus she must have most of her wildest urges repressed and just waiting to spring out given the opportunity. Aww yeah.
Muslim Lady? I HAVE always been curious as to what delightful things must lurk beneath her burkha (I assume you assume she has one on) — if she’s willing to go to all that effort to hide them.
Hindu lady? What, am I just supposed to avoid her and go for the stripper/hooker because I’m a racist rapist? She’s a woman, just like the others. Good to go.
“have u not noticed the degrading vision of society as to where now it’s normal to be gay”
Cue irrelevant comment that invalidates the rest of your opinion. Or perhaps men aren’t allowed to be gay because men are insatiable lustful creatures, and if they’re gay too that means they’ll go out raping humans with rights — i.e. other men.
As a young woman and a Toronto citizen, he will rue the day those stupid words crossed his lips. Women in Toronto don’t take sexist bullshit like that, and he Will be made to apologize like the shamed, ignorant little boy he is.
Sexual assault and rape isn’t about wanting to have sex with a “sexy” girl. It’s about power over someone else. Women who are old, disabled, and “ugly” in your terms, are also sexually assaulted. You are so terribly ignorant, I hope you never have to eat your words.
wow, with everything else going on in the world now, *this* is what you navel gazing pontificators have your backs up about? (both sides)
i don’t disagree, the cop’s remark was out of line, but you commenters are having a good old fashioned flame war as if he had declared that rape was ok
how about directing all that rage at more important issues than trying to squeeze a meaningless apology from someone?
This *IS* an important issue. The issue is that the person in charge of catching rapists do not think rapists have committed a crime!
This is not just some “bad comment made by some guy”. This is proof that there is something terribly inept about this cop. It’s not like some guy said your shoes are ugly!
The reason rape is still an issue today is because SOME people think we should focus on “more important things”, as if systematic violence against women isn’t an important problem.
For some reason, we STILL to this day prosecute sex crimes differently from other crimes because people just don’t seem as concerned when the victim is a female and when the crime is of a sexual nature.
I’m not a canadian (I’m american) but I think if Canadians have the self-respect that I think they do, they should demand this “cop” be fired and hire someone who can actually do his job.
@wow, Wow, you don’t think insidious rape apologism, supporting rape culture, and perpetuation of rape myths by some of our own law enforcement officers is an important issue? I bet it is to the 1 in 4 women and 1 in 33 men who will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. (U.S. statistics because they were handy.)
This article does us a favour in one regard: it educates us to the fact the average law enforcement officer doesn’t really understand crime, just the enforcement of law.
Blaming a victim is what criminals and those sympathetic to the criminal do. Perhaps the Toronto Police Service should revise the psych testing it does prior to hiring. They should most certainly revise the education they give to those who will speak on their behalf.
Rape or no rape; why do certain women still have to dress like a slut?!
Point or no point; why do some people have to post a complete non-comment online?
I know, right? I hate it when women broadcast that they might be amenable to consensual sex. It just ruins everything for me when I know they want it.
I really appreciate reading these comments that tear apart the sexually disgruntled, obviously inept first post, especially yours, George. I wish more men would help lift up women against the tyranny of misogyny. It’s hard to fight the human garbage that is the sexist male when it’s just your sisters behind you. Thank you for being a rational, intelligent, caring human being.
Cee, you can’t be serious that,
“This society fosters a rape culture”.
If you really want to see one I suggest you travel to Congo or another war torn country near by. That is an absurd notion that is not helping people understand the true issue.
This over the top ideology and talking points such as ‘this society is a culture of rape’ is the ignorant type of thinking that murks the water and makes it harder for people to see the issue clearly. Case in point, the athletes at Duke university that were charged and later they were dropped. Overexcited crusaders (the prosecutor) fighting a cause doesn’t help the cause in the long run. So lets stick to facts and figures.
Vilifying or painting an entire gender as predisposed to something, not only that but, accepting, of something violent is willful ignorance.
I have to say, the Duke case was an outlier. They always exist. But you can’t use outliers as a representative of what COMMONLY happens.
More importantly, MOST men don’t rape. However almost all rapists are men. That’s also a fact that can’t be disputed.
ALL people are MUCH more likely to get physically injured by a man than by a woman.
The officer needs some training on sexual assault facts, rape myths, and how his thinking is entirely skewed. This officer should not be allowed to investigate sexual assaults, as he holds true to some well refuted rape myths. He apparently still holds to the belief that all men are susceptible to the need to sexually assault, that the appearance or sexual behavior of a victim somehow ‘triggers’ his need to rape. His thinking does a disservice to both genders.
This is completely an inaccurate and biased way of thinking, considering that both men have been the victims and women have been the perpetrators. Would he claim a child act not so ‘provocatively’ around adults who may suddenly decide to sexually molest him or her? Would he claim that an man’s behavior somehow goaded a person to rape him? You can believe that those words would never come from his lips, because he believes that men and children don’t incite sexual assault. Revoltingly, in his mind view, women do.
The sexuality of a victim nor there appearance is a trigger for rapists; rather, the rapists need to dominate seeks him/her to commit acts against targets.
The cop shouldn’t have to apologize for anything. What he said is absolutely true. I don’t care about how everyone has the right to dress the way they want. It doesn’t matter if you have the right to do anything, that will never stop someone from taking advantage of it. If a woman puts on a skanky outfit like a tube top, booty shorts and (god forbid) Ugg boots, then she has officially said to the world “I’m a lower class citizen who wants to advertise my body to every guy out there rather than make something of myself.” Seriously, the very second a perv sees that, his manhood is gonna shoot off like a rocket (if she’s sexy, that is) and is now fueled up and ready to unleash his primal desires… with force. No man on this earth respects a girl who shows off everything to the world. If you want respect, have a little class and dress like a decent human being and fucking COVER YOURSELF.
Except studies into rape and the psychology of rapists show that what you, the cop and Fair Game all said are completely false. Rape and sexual assault is about power, not sex and it doesn’t matter two damns what a woman is wearing, she’s still vulnerable. I’m a victim of both crimes and when they were committed, I was always dressed conservatively. Furthermore, as a human being, people deserve the basic respect of freedom of movement and to remain unharassed and treated AS A HUMAN BEING. My mama taught me that everyone deserves respect until they prove otherwise and not to judge a book by its cover. Apparently you aren’t as compassionate.
As a DECENT and CARING MAN, I DISAGREE WITH YOU, Corinth. As a STRONG and COMPETENT MAN, secure in myself as a Human Being, I DISAGREE WITH YOU and am insulted. What you are committing in your comment is a seriously gross blanket statement, and is bad thinking. There is clearly a need for you to further experience debate with others, learn to do it well, and to think in detail about your opinions. Your opinions are beliefs, which are nothing. Only facts are knowledge, which is EVERYTHING. Be careful where you tread, lest you cause this world to know nothing but hate. And, for your information, my beautiful wife here agrees with this statement.
The Human BEAST is in all of us, and it is up to ALL OF US to take responsibility. However, the era of “covering yourself up” should no more come into play now for women again than it should for men. It is this STIGMA as well as improper education – from the family, society, culture, etc. – during up-bringing, grotesque forms of self-indulgence as seen in the worst pornography, and other very real outside factors that influence the way in which an individual thinks. As Jo said earlier in this thread, IT IS A LEARNED BEHAVIOUR. It is not inherent in men to the point where they cannot use their reason and intellect over their primal drives any more than it is to women.
We are capable of whatever we CHOOSE to accomplish, despite our human nature – and in fact ENTIRELY due to our human nature – because we are capable of a high degree of self awareness, of learning and of conscious deliberate thought. I suggest that you MEDITATE on your own words, on the ideas about which you are forming your opinions, and process the input of others as well as consider in detail all of the contingencies. It will unclutter your mind, free your perspective from rigid moral bounds, and enable you to succeed as an intellectual.
A woman on the beach, or a man, is almost entirely nude. On some beaches, they are entirely nude, and it is at the NUDE beach, where nothing is covered and no provocatively designed attire (skirts, bikinis, etc.) is required or normally used. Again, it is in large part the STIGMA attached to sexuality, nature and human nudity that causes the warped perspective of boys seeking to find sexuality in limited expressions such as PORNOGRAPHY and girls taught to reveal themselves only if it is attractive (as opposed to necessary, as in when men remove their shirts on a hot day).
Please, THINK about it.
maybe you should drug your knuckles over to 2011.
By your train of thought, then poor people in developing countries DESERVE to be exploited because they can’t dress tastefully like those of us with money. If they look dirty and live in dirt hovels, I guess they’re just subhuman!
Jeez…who ELSE thought like that…
OH YEA! SLAVE MASTERS!
“skanky outfit like a tube top, booty shorts and (god forbid) Ugg boots, then she has officially said to the world “I’m a lower class citizen who wants to advertise my body to every guy out there rather than make something of myself.”
Culturally, this is wrong. Our strongest defining criterion for “class” in our society is money, not manner of dress. Looking outlandishly skanky costs a lot of money (esp. Ugg boots), and thus those wearing more expensive skanky clothing are actually saying “I can afford to look this cheap, and thus am making a statement about how I am more successful, reproductively and commercially, than you are.”
“No man on this earth respects a girl who shows off everything to the world.”
With generous exceptions made for every female musician and actress who has ever made it in the industry on or after the 1950s.
“The cop shouldn’t have to apologize for anything.”
It’s true. The rich are asking to get robbed too, and so the police should tell them to buy conspicuously expensive things so they can do less serving and protecting and more policymaking. After all, they’ll never stop someone from taking advantage of the rich.
“What he said is absolutely true. I don’t care about how everyone has the right to dress the way they want.”
There are certain things you can’t say when you’re put in a position of public responsibility. I don’t assume that you ever will be, but the cop can’t just say anything when he’s speaking in the capacity of a government employee representing his department.
“If you want respect, have a little class and dress like a decent human being and fucking COVER YOURSELF.”
How about having a little class and learning to glance at cleavage like a decent human being instead of staring, getting called on it, and subsequently railing against women to mask your embarassment?
In regard to apologies Eric R Biddle who was tortured, robbed and subjected to criminal activity by Sgt John Cullen and his partner in the Toronto police, is still willing to accept one. The last incident occurred in 1995 when Biddle was in private consultation with his lawyer Mike Strathman after having been wrongly imprisoned almost 9 years. He was accosted by Cullen in an attempt to frighten him in front of District Court. Biddle asked Cullen then a Sgt if he would like to step out onto the street to discuss the matter and hoped for an apology. Instead the cowardly Sgt Cullen ran into the bowels of the Court House . Not only did he not apologize but he refused to appear on camera when TV Ontario made a documentary about the Eric R Biddle case.
Fair Game = Troll. Not possible that the first post on a report like this could be really saying something like that.
At the same time, why does everybody file complaints about everything? Sure, the cop shouldn’t say it, obviously agreed. But any time someone says something someone doesn’t like these days, we complain. This opinion could completely be ‘off’, but in the courts are there not a lot of situations where wordplay is used as a tool? And before someone complains, I don’t mean wordplay in the sense that this shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Interested in your thoughts.
You raise an interesting point, and I think I would support it if the cop’s words were said in a private conversation. As it stands, however, his words were said while representing the law enforcement community, and reflect poorly on that community. He was also making his comments in regard to how women can avoid being victimized, making his statement about as damaging as the doctor who tells us to butter our burns – it does make it worse for anyone who has been victimized, and takes focus away from the real issue: rapists are responsible for their own actions, and many of them give warning signs as they attempt to groom their intended victim.
If some random guy supported rapists by blaming the victim, he’s simply an idiotic asshole. But if the guy who is RESPONSIBLE for law and order, who is a part of the very association that is in charge of catching rapists, says rape is the fault of the victim, then we should ALL complain because the person is obviously incapable of performing his job properly.
The same reason that we DON’T allow people under investigation for corruption conduct their OWN investigation of their OWN corruption, we should NOT tolerate having an arbitrator of justice with an incredibly skewed sense of justice.
For that matter, would you go to a cop and report getting robbed if you knew the cop thought all robbery victims asked for it?
Would you go to a doctor or cancer treatments if you knew that doctor thought cancer patients weren’t worth his time? Wouldn’t you at least be a LITTLE suspicious that maybe the doctor wouldn’t give you his/her all?
Would you ask for a recommendation letter from a person who you KNEW FOR A FACT did not like people of your race/religion/gender?
Would you hire a tutor to teach your child if you knew the tutor thought your child was just naturally stupid?
This is no longer an issue of the cop saying the wrong thing in the wrong forum. This is proof that the cop is NOT capable at his job.
A good way to prevent rape is NOT TO RAPE PEOPLE. This is MEN’S responsibility, not women’s.
@Alex My close friend in college, a man, was forcibly raped by a women. He repeatedly asked her to stop. He reported the rape, and she was arrested and expelled. Women can and do sexually assault, both men and other women. Rape is not a men’s issue. Rape it not a women’s issue. Rape is a universal issue.
Claiming that only men rape is not only incorrect, but it marginalizes the men and women who are sexually assaulted by women.
It appears that men certainly do not have an exclusive claim to bad manners, foul language or preemptive character assassination via abusive Ad Hominem statements. The women have clearly proven that they are just as capable.
This topic has nothing to do with Muslim society and comparisons to what may happen in such societies are both irrelevant and display a very poor understanding of how such societies differ from ours. The words of the Ayatollah Khomeini in his Little Green Book were “Women is Man’s Field and a man may plow his field whenever he wants to”. Regardless of how you feel about that the fact is that there is no valid comparison between our society to what that ideology represents. Read the book and then you will have a better understanding of the fundamentalist Muslim ethic.
“Fair Game” displayed incredible poor taste and judgement in his selection of screen name, that is clear. His comment is however is to some degree justified in that the victim always plays a role in any situation that results in rape. His comment about choosing a traditionally clad Muslim women was set in OUR society and is probably accurate in that context. Advice to not “dress like a slut” is probably a good idea if you are to be walking alone at night in Toronto. Men ARE attracted to a good looking women and that also includes male rapists regardless of the psychological motivation behind a rape attack.
Grow up people and get realistic. Some basic training in appropriate debating skill wouldn’t hurt either.
“poor taste and judgment” is an understatement at best.
The one and only way to stop rape is for rapists to NOT RAPE. How do you stop rapists? BY ACTUALLY HOLDING THEM CULPABLE!
Look, if you’re just here to whine about someone speaking rudely to you, I really kind of don’t care. The rest of us are talking about the seriousness of rape and the ridiculousness of people who excuse them.
Given that the majority of rapes in our society are spousal rapes or perpetrated by people known to the victim, I would venture to guess that a woman in traditional Muslim dress in our society is just as likely to get raped as one who dresses “like a slut.”
Now, In the small subset of stranger rapes, is the clothing the victim wears associated with frequency of rape? No one knows. The data indicates that there really isn’t a correlation, but a good study hasn’t been done. What we do know is this: It is wrong to imply that a person would not have been raped had they been wearing something different. It is wrong for a public safety officer to perpetuate under reporting of sex crimes based on his own convictions (not fact) by saying that victims ask to be victimized. It is so, so wrong to try to curb an entire gender’s right to dress the way that they like by waving the threat of rape in front of them.
Do you honestly think that if every woman in America wore a burqa the problem of stranger rape would go away? Because that’s what you just posited.
Hey Edgar,
It feels weird even responding to this but have you ever thought that maybe there are higher statistics of rape in countries with greater civil liberties for women because they are more able to report it?
Would a woman want to report being raped in a country (such as Saudi Arabia) that has sentenced women to 200 lashes by a whip when they report being raped?
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache:ABF6yTSqABcJ:http://www.zimbio.com/Saudi+Arabia/articles/55/Rape+Whip+Imprison+Asked+saudi+arabia+%2B+woman+whip+rape&ct=clnk
Well now that we know how to completely put an end to rape could we PLEASE get a copy of the “Sluts Wear THIS List” now your wondering – Where is this list! We need it – sadly its actually written by these boys mothers – Yes, that’s right I said MOTHERS – It is these women, the ones raising these young men who first teach them what a NICE girl LOOKS like and wears – What a TRAMP looks like, the things that sluts wear and trust me – I have HEARD these mothers talking to 6-7-8 year old BOYS this way about 6-7-8 year GIRLS!!!!! You don’t want to know what I’ve heard mothers of teenage boys say!
This is a LEARNED opinion (And it is an opinion) the sooner mothers and women in general stop stabbing each other in the back the sooner we can get to raising a decent society – where EVERYONE regardless of gender – colour – religion, Even that Lil’Slut, Tramp, Bitch, Skank hitting on your 7 year old son – ( Oh she’s 7 also mom! ) We can have a little concern and respect for each other
Brilliant, Jo. Thank you for this important insight. Very few people realise that the root of the problem is in fact usually in the way that people are brought up. The worst effects I’ve ever seen on the personalities of developing young people were those caused to the minds of young men by their own mothers. Little boys of nasty mothers always try to get in my way when walking down the street, for example. These can be very small kids, and they walk at me like I deserve to be bowled over or to move over for them because they are male. Well, I don’t move. I knock them down, irregardless of age, if this is the way they are behaving.
The times that I was raped, by the way, I was dressed more conservatively than usual, and I usually dress professionally anyway.
And did it ever occur to the men who perpetrate this kind of behaviour that it is insufferable unbearable to not be able to walk five minutes from your home without being hollered or honked at, called foul names (like “hey sexy ass!”) etc., and for it to persist for your entire time out of your home, every single day? It’s been a big problem for me ever since I looked like an adult … at age 12.
Seven years at York U, and still I am baffled by the idiocy that runs rampant across the main campus. This school is full of ignorance, and hateful enemies.
Officer’s thinking:
Dress like a slut –> Guys in dark alleys will look at me closely –> I will get raped
–> My fault because I “made the guy look at me”
Don’t dress like a slut –> Guys in dark alleys will not look at me closely –> I will not get raped –> YAY me because I had the power to prevent getting raped
Yup. So logical. *Rolls eyes*.
Ugh. What simplistic thinking.
Those who have said rape is about power rather sex are right. Those who have said rape happens to people of all ages, both genders, in all cultures regardless of dress are also right. Those who say we shouldn’t blame the victim are absolutely right. But these are not divisive issues. So please – no more repetition of these things on which we all agree – including the Toronto cop.
The issue on which comment would be enlightening is whether there is a connection between women’s clothing, or lack thereof, and the objectification of women.
It seems we abhor advertisers using girls in slutty clothing but girls in slutty clothes in real life are quite okay. Is there an inconsistency here, perhaps?
In the middle east, if a woman wears a long sleeve shirt and jeans, SOMEONE is bound to think she’s dressed like a slut.
I don’t care if a woman walks around naked. If it’s rape, it’s wrong.
Playboy bunnies pose naked PROFESSIONALLY. it’s their job and they get paid for it. but that doesn’t mean any man who runs into them in real life gets to rape them. It’s called “a job” for those of you too stupid to understand it.
I agree with the officer, Sure women can dress the way they want but 100% guarantee that if your wearing more revealing clothing and dress slutty you are MORE LIKELY to be harassed or even worse raped. Its up to you, you can’t change the way some men are and as smart responsible women you should understand this. Understand that not everybody is mentally stable and some men like to control and are messed up and perverted, so the most logical decision is to prevent this sort of thing from happening and dress more appropriately. By all means dress the way you want, but understand there’s an element of risk. sure its not right, but that life and trust me its going to continue like this for a while, you will never be able to abolish all these instances but I’m sure you can decrease its probability by dressing more appropriately.
Actually, research the crime of rape and the statistics surrounding it. You will see that you’re completely wrong. Women who are raped and harassed are just as likely to have been dressed modestly as not. I’m a victim of both rape and several attempts at sexual assault and when I was attacked, I was always dressed conservatively.
Maybe, if men can’t control themselves around women they need to be the ones restrained, rather than the women, who, after all, have committed no crime
Andrew, are you “fair game” in disguise? because you sound exactly like him.
Hey, you’re right. Not EVERYONE is mentally stable and some men lack control. So if you got beat up and raped by a man who thought you looked like you had money and liked it up the @ss, we should just let that guy walk free right? After all, he lacked control and it’s not really his fault. You should have just stayed home everyday, hiding under a bed, because otherwise your appearance could just set off some guy who isn’t normal.
For that matter, why lock up ANY criminals? *MOST* people don’t rob houses but the few that do simply lack the normal self-control so it’s not really THEIR fault. It’s the fault of the house owners for looking like they’re so rob-able.
Let’s not prosecute drunk drivers either! Alcoholism is a disease so if a drunk driver mows down a bunch of kids on their way to school, it’s the fault of those kids for daring to walk outside! Why didn’t they just magically teleport themselves to school?
Why prosecute gangsters? Research has shown that most violent criminals and incarcerated people have issues with self-control and often ranks well below the normal standard. Let’s just let ALL criminals out of the jail and shut down all jails! “Understand that not everybody is mentally stable and some men like to control and are messed up and perverted, so the most logical decision is to prevent this sort of thing from happening and dress more appropriately.” That means all of us, men AND women (because men get raped too, INCLUDING in the US military), should just avoid all human contact and live in dirt holes by ourselves for the rest of our lives while we just let those poor criminals with no self-control rule the world.
My apartment was broken into once. I’m a poor-ass college student with NO money whatsoever. But I guess it’s MY fault for appearing rich by living in an apartment instead of a cardboard box in the streets.
I read in the news about a 19yo guy who was murdered for only a few bucks. Guess it’s HIS fault too. Why did he entice the murderer-robber with a few measly bucks?
Andrew, I think that guy over there is eye your shoes…….Oo…..you’re asking for it…..
O_o
It makes me sad that one moronic police officer can say something like this and makes the whole force look like misogynistic assholes. As a victim of sexual assault who DID go to the police, they aren’t all like this and I would actually say most of them aren’t.
I would like to know why this particular officer was chosen to speak on this issue when he has no understanding of it and is therefore clearly not qualified to do so. It isn’t as if there are no police officers in the city who have two brain cells to rub together, so what gives?
Dressing provocatively may not be an invitation to rape but it IS an invitation to be treated as an object. Please note that I haven’t specified a gender.
To all of you on here who are blaming the victim for dressing too ‘slutty’ or ‘sexy’. Has it occurred to all of you that this argument cheapens men as much as women by asserting that guys have absolutely no control over their instinct and that instinct will always trump our higher thought processes? By the same logic, those who wear expensive clothes were just asking to get robbed because nobody can control themselves, right?
The biggest problem with this situation is that the officer will likely not have to suffer the consequences of his actions (the parallels to victim-blaming are astounding). My guess is a brief suspension with pay at worst, though a light slap on the hand in the form of a forced public apology is the most likely outcome.
While people recognize these kinds of comments as wrong, society doesn’t care about women enough (yet) to follow through on making examples of people who are in positions of authority, but who clearly shouldn’t be. By not taking this issue as seriously as it should, the police department is merely acknowledging public frustration with the officer in question rather than taking responsibility for the situation. True, you can’t control everything coming out of an employee’s mouth, but public servants have a responsibility to ensure that the people walking the streets are educated and sensitive to such damaging events.
As far as I’m concerned, the police representative’s PR spinning is just as bad as the cop’s comment. What are you investigating? He said it. People heard it. Time for justice. It’s almost as if they’re saying, “If women didn’t get raped so much, we wouldn’t have to be bothered with providing tips on how to stay safe. And then this issue would have never happened.”
Are you kidding me?
Who here suspects that Fair Game is indeed the police officer, further running his mouth??
First to comment…? Sounds fishy.
I’m not making accusations, just wondering.
When you tweet this; make sure to cc @torontopolice
@fairsuggestion
Women get raped every day by people that they know wearing almost anything. The last thing a victim needs to hear is that they gave the rapist an incentive to rape them. You have obviously never been raped, or else you wouldn’t utter something so ignorant and one sided.
Let us remember, people, that rapists are sick people; they enjoy violent and brutally having sex. How a woman dresses play very little in a rapist committing the act or not. Seriously, do you think that because you are wearing long jeans and a sweater you risk no chance of getting rape?? I have big news for you!
Pretending that the way women dress is a direct consequence of what men will do to do is actually both offensive for men and women: it seems to suggest that women who are covering more their body will not be victim of rape and it also suggests that men cannot control their actions (1) and that they enjoy brutally and violently forcing a women into having sex (2); i’m not sure how many men would enjoy this characterization of themselves.
Okay, here’s a serious question.
Is it okay or not okay for advertisers of products and makers of pop music video clips to use semi-naked models in slutty clothes and make-up?
There have undoubtedly been hundreds (if not thousands) of graduate theses on this very subject–I think the resounding answer to your question is, “The jury’s still out.” Or, at the very least, it will remain a contentious issue for a very long time (if not forever).
What is the bigger consideration to me is the definition of the word “slut” and its implied meaning. It’s a tired observation, but it’s still true–guys who sleep around are seen as manly and deserving of respect for their sexual prowess, whereas girls who have the confidence to enjoy their own sexuality while behaving the same way are completely disrespected and dismissed as tramps. Where’s the equality in that? Even when men get called sluts and whores in popular culture, the connotation is a positive or non-serious one.
Rather than do an overhaul on advertising practices, I’d like to see a complete rewrite of cultural understanding and acceptance when it comes to female sexuality. You can’t shame sluts if the concept of being a slut doesn’t exist.
Last I checked, dressing provocatively is part of their job description so I don’t really see your point! Part of their job description is also to be more attractive than the vast lot of us (except me because I’m gorgeous LOL LOL)
Come to think of it, you’ve posted more than one random non-issues that no one but you think is a thought provoker here.
If I were you I wouldn’t go around calling myself “clear thinking” because it’s an embarrassment.
Everyone needs to chill out and take a look at this UN crime survey before we keep bashing the guy who made the first comment and the police officer in question:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
It is shown that the majority of the top 20 nations with the highest prevalence of rape in the world are those with the greatest female civil liberties, which includes the freedom to dress as they please. (South Africa, Australia, Canada, USA, France, UK, etc.) The others are mostly impoverished nations with weaker law enforcement established. (Jamaica, Zimbabwe, Dominica, Venezuela, etc.)
It is shown that many of the the bottom 20 countries surveyed are predominantly governed under Islamic Law or with a legal code modeled after Islamic Law, with far fewer female civil liberties. (Azerbaijan, Yemen, Indonesia, Qatar, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc.) Rape is actually found to be the least prevalent in Saudi Arabia, where many foreign observers find women to have the fewest civil liberties.
This information was found in about 2 minutes, which suggests that the people most in need of education are those blindly criticizing our friend who made the first post. His point is valid and so is that of the police officer, statistics show. However, the officer probably should have exercised more tact in his choice of words, which by the looks of them suggest that they have been taken somewhat out of context, in my non-expert opinion.
Please, before anyone tells me that I am placing the blame on victims, read the following: Rape is against the law and I do not condone it. The tragic fact is this: people are going to rape people no matter what. There is nothing anyone can do to eliminate it without revoking our civil liberties to extreme degrees.
The biggest problem with numbers and estimates on rape has to do with a severe under-reporting of these incidents, due in large part to cultural issues such as this one. If a woman feels embarrassed or worries that she won’t be taken seriously when reporting a rape (e.g. being told she looks slutty and was probably asking for it), why would she bother making it worse on herself? Embarrass the victim, protect the rapist. Not to mention how many women in other nations will get stoned to death for being an “adulteress” or having sex outside of marriage when someone (yes, even a family member) rapes them. There’s a lot of incentive to keep your mouth shut when someone violates you.
There are a lot of nuances here, and it’s hard to trust the numbers. Not that they should have anything to do with this–rape is rape, regardless of religion, dress, geographic location, sex/gender, age, or any other demographic someone should happen to pull out in defence of ignorance.
That site clearly says:
“DEFINITION: Total recorded rapes. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.”
The actual prevalence of rape IS NOT reflected in this chart, the website itself says so. This is a collection of reported rapes, not real prevalence.
In many Middle Eastern countries women who are rape victims can be publicly punished with lashings, killed by the family members or shunned by their community. Therefore, reporting is low. Try reading all the information before trying to use these statistics to your advantage.
I just want to point out that statistics like that are based upon REPORTED crime, or government estimates. In some countries being raped can lead to you being condemned to death, I’d say that’s a reason to keep it quiet. In countries with more equal rights for women, women are more likely to report crimes against them. In countries where rape is understood as a crime of power, and victim blaming is slightly less of a problem, more people will come forward. Even in the US, where I’m from, most assaults go unreported.
Look at the caveat on the survey you just posted: “Total recorded rapes. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.”
In countries governed by Islamic law, rapes are vastly under reported precisely because the victim is often blamed for somehow soliciting the assault. In many cases, when the victim is a woman, the victim is then charged with adultery. A man’s word counts more than a woman’s so the rapist can simply claim the woman seduced him to avoid a rape charge. Naturally, this reduces the number of recorded rapes because 1) it’s not recorded as a rape if it’s recorded as adultery and 2) who the hell risks reporting rape in a country where they’re more likely to punish the victims? This is precisely the reason why all of us are mad at rape apologists like Fair Game and the policeman in the article. They enable rapists by blaming the victim for the crime.
Also @Edgar Graham, shame on you for pretending to state the facts while at the same time confounding correlation and causation.* They are not the same. If you don’t condone rape, please don’t inadvertently contribute to rape culture by supporting rape apologists and not reading your own sources correctly.
*An example: While red hair and freckles often occur together (correlation), it does not necessarily follow that red hair CAUSES freckles (it doesn’t).
@mynameisbutters
Excellent comment but unfortunately too many people are so uneducated in science and basic statistics that they can’t separate correlation from causation.
There is research showing correlation between teenagers who have breakfast with family and sexual activity at a later age. An idiot would claim breakfast cereals have the magical ability to make kids more “moral” but in reality, it’s because typically, children who have breakfast with their family come from more close-knit families with more attentive parents.
These statistics don’t show anything about whether “dressing slutty” makes you more likely to be raped. I’d go so far as to say that countries where women’s freedoms are greatly restricted don’t create an environment where it’s easy for women to report rape in the first place. Rape is very prevalent in many African countries, for example, but do you think that society there provides recourse for victims, or even acknowledges that a crime has taken place in most cases?
You’ll notice the DRC isn’t recorded, where rape is used as a weapon of war. Also, many of those countries at the bottom of the list don’t consider marital rape a crime.
As the majority of responses to your post have pointed out, this is a report on sexual assault that is reported or otherwise recorded. The relationship between reports of sexual assault and the civil liberties women have in that country cannot be over-emphasized; it is far easier to report a sexual assault in a country which will take your report seriously. The report in question does not define “rape” or take into account the differences in definition by region. I prefer the term sexual assault, as it encompasses many different aspects of the term than just forced intercourse.
In many of the countries you reference as being in the bottom 20, reporting a sexual assault is a fast track to ostracism on the nice end of things. Can you imagine how difficult it must be for a woman to disclose sexual violence to the men who think her ankles are to be hidden? I know from travelling to some of these countries that women are blamed for many types of sexual assault, including being groped or frotteurised on public transit; these women should not be in public surrounded by men is the logic used. It does stand to reason that in a country where women are “allowed” to say no, they will report a man who doesn’t respect their use of the word or their attempts to protect their civil liberties and personal safety.
I don’t think you are necessarily placing blame on the victim, however, I do think it’s a good idea for you to look into the subject a little more thoroughly.
A few things the officer in question, as well as most of the comments, seem to disregard include male on male sexual assault, or even what dressing “like a slut” entails. The word is, after all, a misogynist insult in itself. If a young boy is assaulted, is it possible he also dressed like a slut? Or perhaps it’s more to the point that in justification of his actions a rapist will say he was overcome by feelings of lust based on his victim’s attire rather than say the truth: he is a violent offender who will take whatever excuse he can create to be violent toward his preferred victim.
Naturally countries where the legal penalty for having been raped is stoning have fewer rapes, not less reporting.
So if you have sharia law in these societies, then you have a situation wherein a woman’s testimony in a court of law is worth only half a mans. So if two men hold a woman down while a third rapes her, and then she goes to the police, her testimony counts for nothing against that of her three rPISTS, NO?
So how many fucking rapes do you think are likely to get reported in these shitholes?
That police officer is terrible. This whole “dressing like a slut” business actually has nothing to do with a woman’s preference of clothing. “Dressing like a slut” is an EXCUSE used by perpetrators to justify hurting another person.
To say that a woman who dresses how she wants to dress deserves to be raped is like saying that you deserve to be hit by a car if you’re around a road. It doesn’t matter if you’re at a crosswalk or have the pedestrian right-of-way or even on the sidewalk – you’re near the road, so I’m going to run you over with my car. Sure, I could CHOOSE not to and keep going on my merry way, but because you’re close to a street, it means you’re “asking for it,” right? I mean, if you didn’t want to become a victim of vehicular homicide, surely you would NEVER go near a road.
People could cover every inch of skin, lock themself in a house, master self-defense, carry a knife, carry a gun, wear a locked metal “chastity belt”, and still get raped. We can take measures to protect ourselves, and still get assaulted. Sometimes sexual assault happens long after a person has been made a victim.
Sometimes the people who commit the crime are the ones we turn to for protection, the ones we think will never hurt us. Sometimes it can happen where we feel the safest. Sometimes it happens when we least expect it.
Subjectivity aside, what the police officer said is worse than unhelpful. If a person were to believe him, were to believe that by dressing conservatively s/he could avoid or discourage rape, they might believe they were safe.
Freedom of speech isn’t quite the same thing when you’re in a position of formal public trust and wearing the uniform of a sworn service. Stop making stuff up.
People are making a big deal of this because you fundamentally DO NOT GET IT and are advancing a very dangerous line of reasoning. You are ENABLING the problem. You and your attitudes are PART of the problem. Listen and learn, stop being so pig-headed. This stuff counts.
No one asks to be raped, unless it’s a fantasy of yours. Period.
The policeman does not have to issue the apology. He has not done anything wrong. It is just a suggestion people. Dont make such a big deal over this! If you do not dress like sluts, then ignore the suggestion. Why bother to get so offended?
Dressing slutty at night is like wearing a redsuit when a stupid bull is around. Smart people will avoid dressing in red. Do not give rapers an incentive by not dressing slutty, trust me, it will help you alot. (Althought it has been proven that colour red does not anger a bull)
After all the policeman just voiced his thoughts – freedom of speech – and if you do not like it, then ignore it.
Lastly always look around when you are alone
It’s not just a suggestion, and women covering up won’t suddenly make rape go away or stop assaults. Not only is it an ignorant comment that the police officer made but the fact that he is a cop makes it worse because he is supposed to one of the “good guys” who will help the victims. As well, the definition of “slutty” can be almost anything. Maybe the pants were not baggy enough, shirt not baggy enough, should of wore a jacket, should of wore a veil….how far do you want to go? There is never a justification.
P.S. freedom of speech also involves the right to voice dissent against ignorance.
@Fair suggestion, It is absolutely wrong to spread misinformation like that because it leads to the perpetuation of a culture in which women are held responsible for a crime committed against them. It is absolutely NOT TRUE that promiscuous dress “attracts” rapists. Please educate yourself:
A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only 4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior (“sluttiness”) on the part of the victim. In murder cases 22% involved such behavior (as simple as a glance). Additionally most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing.
The policeman should issue an apology, though the explanation should be prepared by the police service and be to the effect of, “We did not properly educate this officer on the subjects he discussed.”
The logic you use is astounding. First you suggest there’s a relationship between rape and time of day, and then in one breath assert that one should not wear red around a bull while in the next seem to suggest awareness of the fact bulls are colour blind…
Lastly, awareness isn’t the best way to protect yourself. The average rapist is known to the victim, and spends time grooming said victim. If there’s not a previous relationship, the perpetrator takes steps to circumvent his victim’s awareness and preparedness. There is, frankly, no way to completely avoid being a victim. Rather it is better to make oneself a harder target.
No, what the policeman is doing is blaming the victim and in so doing he is creating an atmosphere in which rape is seen as being more acceptable because it really “not the rapist’s fault”. Unless this kind of crap is stamped on every time we hear it we will continue to have a society where women can’t even answer their own front door without the fear of rape.
That cop is a pig. Sexual assault should never be a frightening cloud that hangs over the heads of pretty or beautiful women. Some women can’t “ugly” themselves up to avoid being jumped by a pig. JUST DON’T DO IT! No matter what a victim “looks” like.
He’s also an idiot. Everyone knows that pigs who rape women or who expose themselves or whatever else, have serious mental problems that go way beyond their “weapon of choice.” Just because they can’t keep it in their pants, doesn’t mean it has ANYTHING to do with actual sex. Anger, rage, hatred, revenge and jealousy are the main reasons men rape.
Toronto Police are NOT educating their members! (Pardon the pun).
Hey Fair Game…
My soulsister was sexually assaulted by a man at her synagogue when he drove her home. She wears long sleeved shirts, jeans, and never wears makeup. She’s one of the least “slutty” girls I know. Also, most cases of rape/sexual assault are done by men that are close to them such as boyfriends, husbands, relatives…
And of course, we haven’t touched upon same sex or female-on-male sexual assault.
Fair Game,
you’re a disgusting misogynist. Educate yourself.
Most women aren’t sexually assaulted because of how they dress. They’re usually assaulted by men that they know personally.
‘You dress like a slut you will get treated like one. ‘
So you’re justifying rape now, you pathetic scumbag?
‘That’s your progress, your business, your freedoms that the evil terrorists hate. ‘
That doesn’t even make any sense. Are you justifying Muslim terrorism because women wear tank tops and dresses that don’t cover their knees? How stupid are you?
‘They wouldn’t say—choose a hindu or sikh or muslim woman who was covered in their traditional clothing.’
So women need to be fully covered up to avoid being raped? What kind of sexist double standard is that? As a man I find you’re comment an insult to me personally. You’re treating men as if they’re animals who can’t control themselves. What a ignoramus you are.
And here’s a newsflash: Women don’t need to justify their worth to you by dressing the way you prefer them to dress. If you’re so small-minded that you’d judge a woman negatively not by her character and actions but by how much skin she shows, than you’re the one who needs to change.
I blame the officer for being so crass, but it’s not like this is an isolated issue. This society fosters a rape culture, where it’s on the potential victim to hope they’re not picked out by some rapist tonight. It’s a society which makes women afraid to go to the police because they’re “asking for it” by dressing or acting a certain way.
You are completely correct.
Muslim women are obviously never the victims of sexual violence.
Sound logic.
A woman should not have to cover herself from head to foot to feel safe.
If you knew a single thing about sexual assault and rape you’d know it’s about power and dominance, not about ‘eye candy’.
You are full of it, “Fair Game” — and frankly seem to be getting a little too much enjoyment out of the idea that people “deserve” to be raped. Rape is a crime of power, to suggest it’s primarily sexual attraction that motivates it goes everything we know about the subject. You’re also full of it re: “traditional clothing” as we know damn well the rape culture that exists in some of the societies with very traditional dress. Seriously, look in the mirror, you are expressing some very backward and honestly borderline evil attitudes. This Officer was WAY out of line.
To the person who commented that if a woman dresses slutty, she is therefore to blame for any unwanted sexual advances/assaults should probably get their head examined. Completely backward and illogical thinking when it comes to womens’ issues like sexual assault is asinine and it’s that out of touch thought process that scare women off from reporting these crimes.
And the motivation to sexually assault a woman has been rarely reported as a result of what the victim is wearing compared to a crime of convenience (victim was easy to access and isolate), a result of the perpetrator’s upbringing (bad childhood/was assaulted as a child) ,societal pressures, etc.. A lot of these men also have social/behavioral issues, as well.
Lastly, women are assaulted everyday, whether they’re wearing a parka in the dead of winter, or short -shorts in the middle of summer. Neither are acceptable and neither is your comment. It’s actually quite disgusting and ignorant. It almost feels as if you think they DESERVE to be raped because of what they’re wearing. Personally, I think YOU deserve a smack upside the head for even writing any of that.
Much as I hate to admit it, the first comment does have a point. We live in a time when if you go to our ‘universities’ (our esteemed institutions of learning), all that the people are doing in the hallways, benches, under trees, in every place one looks is doing everything but having the actual act of sex. In such a pornified society as this where its all about flaunting what you got on a beach or at a university…people may not realize the attitudes that are fostered towards them when they act as ‘sluts’.
And yes its true that rape is not the exclusive domain of western foreigners, it still is a sizeable occurance as compared to other countries in the eastern part of the world (saudi arabia)-not saying that it doesn’t happen- but that its much much much less on a ratio basis even taking into account people who won’t report it because the same thing happens here in canada and the USA.
@Thinking about #1, too bad rape is not about sex then, and actually about power. Rapists rape people who are vulnerable, which has nothing to do with anyone’s perceived “sluttiness.”
Yea, the difference between what’s going on at the universities and what’s covered here is that one happens between two consenting adults and the other one is a CRIME.
So if you get married, have kids, so everyone knows decisively that you’re most definitely NOT a virgin, does that mean we can now declare a rape open season? OBVIOUSLY *NOT*.
It is immoral and illegal to force something upon another person, ESPECIALLY something as violent and degrading as rape!!!!!
personally, I feel people who wear a certain brand of clothing are all idiots but that doesn’t mean I now have a license to assault anyone wearing that brand of clothing!
Short version of Mr. ‘Fair Game”s comment: “women who don’t adhere to my religion should be raped.”
I’d say you just need to get laid, but, really, men like you need to be castrated. You’re encouraging violent criminals – if you’re not one yourself – and you’re giving the rest of us a bad name.
Work on your self-loathing, kid. Here’s a hint on where to start; women aren’t to blame for it. Stop punishing them because you’re afraid of their bodies and your own.
I hope you do some growing up before you really damage someone.
Well said George!! Great assessment of fair game’s personality! I’d say you got it exactly right! Hopefully he gets some help with his issues around sexuality and insecurity.
You’re honestly calling women who are dressed like sluts “Fair Game” for being attacked? That gives someone fair reason to sexually assault a woman? Using your flawed theory, that gives me the right to attack you because you’re going around flaunting an opinion I don’t like. Same concept, there is no real logic behind it.
You sir, have your morals backwards. I also don’t understand why you are referring to it as ‘your’ Society like you are not a part of it too. You are a part of the so-called problem of half-naked women selling pepsi and coke and people purchasing it.
Use your head, innocent people have no right to be attacked.
perhaps we should tell men who are victims of crime that it’s their fault too. maybe they should be advised that if they travel or go out at night, they’re just asking to be mugged or robbed. because they are after all just making themselves eye candy to the thieves.
False false faaaalse. Are we fucking done with the sexism and rape apologism? Women do not get raped because of what they wear, but because a disgusting human being RAPED them. 80% of victims know their rapist, so quit it with the ”stranger in a dark alley raping a young woman with a short skirt” trope.
Muslim women are raped all the time. Ugly women are raped. Fat women are raped. Actually, 1 out of 6 women will be raped in her lifetime. You are an ignorant misogynist.
You know nothing about the anatomy of rape, do you?
The elderly and babies are targeted, along with people anywhere on & off the gender spectrum, of all shapes, sizes, colours, creeds, wardrobes. It’s not about them looking pretty, hot, sexy, nor slutty. It’s about power.
The main purpose of rape is power for the rapist, not sexual gratification.
Are you fucking kidding me?!?! Cause everyone who gets sexually assaulted MUST be wearing something slutty
Fucking ignorant idiots
Actually, there’s zero correlation between rape and how someone is dressed, even if you discount the fact that most assaults are committed by relatives and partners. Outside of the societal myths that support rape culture, there’s nothing linking costume, conventional attractiveness, health, fitness, weight, or any other physical trait with rape, completed or attempted.
None.
I also admit to being curious whether you actually believe that cultures which shame women into covering their bodies more fully are magical rape-free zones, which is what you seem to be suggesting.
You can’t have it both ways – either you’re blaming the attacker, or you’re suggesting there’s something the woman could have done to avoid being assaulted. There’s no middle ground there, at all. To say that women should expect to be assaulted and should modify their lives accordingly is to support the belief that women should be contained, covered, and chaperoned. It also infantilises men, suggesting there’s no chance that they could learn not to rape.
Rather than wasting time victim-blaming – and that’s what you’re doing, even with your mealy-mouthed proviso to the contrary – spend your time asking yourself exactly how we’re going to pound it into assailants’ heads that rape is bad, it is not excusable, it is not acceptable, and it is not ever anyone’s fault but theirs.
Superbly put, Judith. I could not agree with you more.
I’m sorry but what you wear has NOTHING to do with it, a lot of sexual assaults happen to women who are in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Or to women that have been watched for weeks or even months, and ‘Fair Game’ I bet you any money they don’t always look like sluts.
& just so you know, Muslims and Sikh women who do wear traditional clothing are just as much at risk if they’re in the wrong place, walking in dark areas and alone.
You and this officer disgust me.
The safety tips should have been general:
Avoid being alone late at night.
Stay in well lit areas.
Hey, Fair Game.
News flash. Sexual assault is a crime of violence, not sex. It’s a power issue, not one of sexual attraction. When I was raped, I was wearing a winter coat, an oversized sweater and baggy jeans – what’s so slutty about that?
I cannot believe the last post. It is people like you that are the problem with society today! I am a male, and regardless of my gender I think that the victims of sexual harrasment should NEVER be to blame.
Do you think the way a woman dresses, really changes the perspective of a predator. How small minded are you? Have you not been reading about the recent events in egypt, where even women in traditional muslim clothing are being sexual harrassed?
Just an FYI, you and your opinion disgust me.
You ARE aware that rape is rampant Hindi, Sikh and Muslim women, yes?
The Toronto police officer’s comment is truly disturbing because he blames the victim for unwanted, forced sexual violence. Blaming the victim means that you hold the person who was attacked responsible for that violence that they suffered. It implies that the victim coulda, shoulda, woulda avoided the attack and therefore was partially responsible for what would inevitably happen. Sadly, that couldn’t be farther from the truth. Rape is regularly and consistently used every day by men all over the world as a way of asserting power and dominance over women. It is a system of control moreso than a sexual act, and therefore it really doesn’t matter what the woman is wearing.
It’s really sad that the police officer who made this comment is in a position of any kind of authroity. With flagrantly sexist and mysogenistic attitudes like that, women in Toronto are certainly less safe. He should be fired or resign from his duties.
Actually, no. It has been well established, time and time again, that rape has nothing to do with how someone is or isn’t dressed. That is a myth used to excuse rapists and blame victims, like what’s happening here. And even if there WAS a correlation, it would STILL be disgusting to blame victims for being raped, because it STILL wouldn’t be their fault.
Fair Game, you sound like a real class act. Are you seriously under the impression that the only women who get raped are “eye candy”? I can’t think of a more ignorant comment you could have made.
Clearly you are a man who hates seeing women in control of themselves, and would prefer if we were all veiled to keep men from getting excited. I pity the women in your life. I’m sure you’d be really sympathetic if any of them were ever raped, but, hey, it would be their own fault if the rapist found them attractive, right?
I imagine you must dress like an ignorant misogynist because you certainly sound like one! Perhaps instead of choosing a “slut” to rape, the men responsible could just not rape anyone! What a crazy idea.
Excuse me “Fair Game” you have no idea what you are talking about. How about you get educated and then talk. It doesn’t matter what women wear. Assault happens because people like you choose to focus on the victim rather than the perpetrator. “I’m sure” doesn’t carry much weight. Women should be able to wear what they want either way. That is not a reason. Assault is about power, it doesn’t matter whether she’s “eyecandy”. I suggest you take a course from Women’s Studies before you continue with your sexism.
Except that the thing about rapists is that *they rape people*
They rape women who are fat and they rape women that are thin.
They rape women who are tall and they rape women that are short.
They rape women of colour and caucasian women.
They rape women wearing snow pants and a parka on a winter day, or they rape a woman wearing a short skirt.
They use rape as a tool of war in war-torn countries.
They rape children, and they rape men.
They are family members, coworkers, police officers, doctors, bosses, students, teachers, friends.
So instead of trying to punish some women for being sexually active, or blaming them for the terrible thing that happened to them. You can encourage people to respect consent and bodily autonomy and *not* rape people.
Your comment reeks of ignorance. Women who dress provocatively are not the only women who get sexually assaulted. And there is no law against dressing in a way you think will attract the opposite sex. The idea that the way you dress is what gets you raped is beyond ridiculous. You and the police officer in question need a bit of education
I don’t agree. I’ll have less hotties to look at >=(
How do sluts dress? Do I deserve to get raped because I’m wearing a skirt? How about if I tell you it goes past my knee, do I still deserve it now? If I’m wearing a long sleeved sweater, is that okay? Or does it have to be a certain degree of baggy before it passes your “shouldn’t get raped” standards?
Saying things like “dress like a slut you will get treated like one” is EXACTLY the kind of statement that contributes to the rape culture that makes men think rape is okay, and it’s wildly misogynistic – what, exactly, should MEN avoid wearing so they don’t get raped? Oh, there’s nothing? Men can wear whatever they want? But women have to dress with a degree of modesty defined by the individual minds of every man on the planet, or hey, it’s her fault.
And by the way, douchebag, women in hindu, sikh, and muslim cultures get raped ALL THE TIME. There’s a well-documented history of family members MURDERING women from those cultures who are raped, despite their “traditional clothing.” So, as it turns out, forcing women to cover up not only FAILS to protect them from rapists, but also dehumanizes them even further, by implying that after being raped, they’re not even worthy of life.
The way to stop rape is for RAPISTS TO STOP RAPING, not for women to swaddle themselves away from male gaze.
Well put sister. Agree on all fronts, glad someone is able to articulate exactly what is so offensive about this comment without relying on name-calling.
There are so many things wrong with this statement but here are the things that really bother me:
1) The onus is NOT on the woman to not get raped, it is on the rapist to NOT RAPE. NO ONE ever deserves to be raped, and it is NEVER a woman’s fault that she was raped. NEVER. Even if she was dressing in a way that you don’t personally approve of.
2) Rape is not about sexual attraction, it is about POWER. Just because a woman is more covered does not mean that a man who is going to rape, will not rape her. It sounds AWFUL, and it IS AWFUL, but rape is not about “eyecandy”. It is all about power and trying to attain power by forcing someone into doing something they don’t want to.
Well when the rapists start listening then hurray for you, till then I suggest you take it upon yourself to help prevent rape. If you are raped it is no way your fault but again can’t help to reduce the chances.
This is the same way I take measures on not getting murdered. Yes the onus SHOULD be on the murderer to stop killing people I do however in the meantime not pick up hitchhikers.
I’d also like to point out that I also do not agree with Fair Game but I do agree with the officer in the article UNTIL I find evidence that is not a quote from the woman who took offense to the statement that the officer was implying that the women are to blame for the rape.
If the officer was simply saying not dressing like a slut can reduce the risk of rape (from opportunistic rape) then by all means he should be able to say that. Yes there will still be rapes on covered up women and “ugly” women but until the rapists decide to stop raping you’ll have to take the responsibility to help not get raped. Which again DOES NOT MEAN you take responsibility for getting raped if you do. RAPE IS WRONG REGARDLESS OF WHO HOW OR WHY IT IS DONE!
If you are trying to make a helpful or constructive point you’d be doing everyone a favor by not. Traditional Muslim women suffer rape. Nuns suffer rape. Grandmothers and little girls suffer rape. Dressing like a “slut” has nothing to do with it.
Of course no one wants to get raped and tries to avoid it!! No one wants to have their house robbed either! Just imagine your house is robbed & things that are special to you are destroyed. Imagine the police show up assess how ‘nice’ your garden looks. Now imagine they make you feel guilty (or even worse blame you) for attracting the thieves. They tell you it’s your fault. (seriously you’d be pissed!) No one would accept that! Are you picking up what I’m saying? Let’s realistically assume what attracts one thief to one house may not be the same as what attracts another thief to another house. Would an arbitrary authority telling us how to decorate our house so they all looked a certain way be effective? We can take all the precautions we can afford (deadbolts, bars on the windows & alarm systems) but if a thief still robs you would you not agree it’s not your fault?
We have the right to decorate & enjoy your home anyway we want! You may not agree with your neighbors idea of what looks ‘nice’ but you must agree you both deserve the same right to be protected? The thief should receive the same penalty regardless of how we each decorate our homes? The thief is at fault!
You’d also get pretty pissed off if a judge sentenced the criminal to 1month jail time because she thought your garden looked shitty but sentenced your neighbors thief to 2 yrs because theirs was nicer looking in the judges eyes!! Thats not how our system works! It shouldn’t work like that in rape cases either!!
Women are raped in middle eastern countries where they cover up, too. Did you think of that?
Rapists attack people who are vulnerable. That can mean children and elderly people, too. Women with disabilities are more likely to be raped than those who are able-bodied for that reason. It’s not about provocative clothing. Rapists act out of a desire to hurt and humiliate their victims, and to have power over them. Isn’t this a whole lot more worthy of criticism than women’s clothing?
“You dress like a slut you will get treated like one” definitely implies that the victims are responsible for crimes against them, and is a disgusting statement that I can’t believe anyone would utter these days. Clothing is not consent for sex, as everyone knows, and “no” is not a hard word to understand. Arguing that rapists can’t understand it is a huge load of crap. After all, “no” is one of the first words we learn as children…so there’s no excuse for rapists regardless of what the victim was wearing.
It’s sad that people like “Fair Game” feel the need to criticize the victims rather than the violent criminals who abuse them…
Hey Fair Game,
I was raped . . . by my boyfriend. Your move.
I’m so sorry. Thank you for being brave enough to use your story to stick up for other women against insensitive jerks.
My ex attempted to rape me while retrieving belongings he had left at my house (fortunately, my dog is super protective and started biting him).
I was also sexually assaulted while wearing a long-sleeved, knee-length dress with a cami that hid my cleavage, my hair in a bun, heavy black stockings and ballet flats. Hardly slutty, didn’t stop five guys from surrounding me and groping/grabbing and trying to violate me until my friends caught them and kicked them out of the restaurant we were in.
Your dog is a better person than Fair Game will ever be.
I’m very sorry about the things that bad people have chosen to do and try to do to you. The last thing anyone (even worse a law enforcement officer!) should do is pretend you somehow made it happen, whether you were wearing a miniskirt or a burqa.
You are a disgusting excuse for a human being, and a poorly educated, socially ignorant one at that.
Anyone who knows the first thing about sexual assault is aware that it is a crime of power and has nothing to do with “eyecandy”. In fact, most victims of sexual assault know the perpetrator intimately – whether it be a family member, friend or other acquaintance. Are you going to tell me that children, the elderly and otherly abled women are assaulted because they are dressed like “sluts”? Did you actually just argue that Hindu, Sikh and Muslim women aren’t victims of sexual assault?
Let me educate you a little bit about what a “fair game” entails. A “fair game” is one in which a person feels safe walking around regardless of their gender, creed, religion, ability, sexual orientation or the way in which they choose to adorn their body. A “fair game” is one in which a victim of a heinous crime feels comfortable approaching a police officer – who, after all, is paid to protect citizens’ safety – without feeling judged or reproached.
Kudos to you for being one of the most ignorant and simple-minded people I’ve ever encountered.
Fair Game, I happen to disagree with you. “You dress like a slut you will get treated like one” – what does that even mean? are “sluts” supposed to be treated differently than other women? That’s beyond ridiculous.
And what’s up with men choosing their “victim” based on how they dress? Do you really believe “hindu or sikh or muslim who was covered in their traditional clothing” don’t get sexually assaulted? It is evident from your illogical statements that you need some intense training on this topic.
“You dress like a slut you will get treated like one” – what does that even mean? are “sluts” supposed to be treated differently than other women? ”
great comment. It really doesn’t mean anything, just a thoughtless comment from somebody who doesn’t even think about what the implications of his words are. I know of women who were sexually harassed who were very conservatively dressed. As well, for some Muslim fanatics if a women shows even her face that is a justification to do whatever they want, because as in the previous comment “dress like a slut you will get treated like one”.
your comment is so incredibly misogynistic, unfounded and dangerous. it is so far from depicting the realities of sexual violence and works only to perpetuate the myth that some how survivors of sexual violence (female or male) are responsible for their perpetrator’s actions.
sexual assault is defined by a lack of consent. period. no consent = sexual assault. no where in that legal definition is there any sort of wiggle room around dress, skirt length, traditional clothing, attitude or relative “sluttiness.”
and i’m going to go ahead and call bullshit on your claim that women who wear traditional clothing are not targets of sexual violence. talk to the women who walk into my office daily to share their stories of intimate partner violence. or the men who experience violence in their own lives.
also – it is unfair for you to make broad sweeping generalizations about “girls today” and the “whole lot of them taking offence.”
sorry if this comes off as curt, but you seem to be someone who appreciates people “telling it like it is.”
I happen to agree with him. You dress like a slut you will get treated like one. And why should you blame the officer? It’s your society which turns women into chattel by making a half naked woman sell a pepsi or sprite bottle. That’s your progress, your business, your freedoms that the evil terrorists hate. Also, girls today dress like sluts so the whole lot of them take offense when someone tells it how it is. Kudos to you Officer.
Of course the men are responsible who perpetrate this, but seriously, when they chose their victim I’m sure that they searched for someone who was eyecandy to them. They wouldn’t say—choose a hindu or sikh or muslim woman who was covered in their traditional clothing.
You’re just as bad as him. You’re basically insinuating that ‘hindu or sikh or muslim’ women don’t experience sexual assault. You’re saying that men only want eye candy. You’re the one reducing women to their appearance anyway. What about mentally challenged women who are assaulted? Young girls? You’re blaming women for men’s crimes. You are furthering ideas that men have uncontrollable urges and act on impulse rather than the fact that they have internatilized misogyny and feel the need to exert control over women due to their own insecurities about masculinity.
I happen to know a lot of decent men who don’t believe that the way a woman is dressed gives you permission to do what you please with her. I also know of a lot of men who think they have that permission, regardless of the situation or your dress.
Educate yourself. Stop being so ignorant. Your victim-blaming rhetoric is not needed here.
Very well said.
It’s not that the victim is being blamed. You can’t change those around you so you should do everything you can to keep yourself save. I agree that people who are covered up also get raped but you try to optimize your security as much as you can… One way is to dress less provocative and make sure you are always around someone you trust when you are at a party and prevent being in unsafe areas. I think the officer used inappropriate words to say what i think he was trying to say or he could just be a really sick person who believes that it’s ok for men to do it if women dress the way they want to.
I agree, if you leave your car keys in plain sight in your car it is more likely to be stolen. This logic can be transferred to the topic at hand The officer simply made a suggestion without sugar-coating it and he got his point across.
i dont think its about “blaming victims”. it’s about common sense. i think that’s what the officer’s intent was with his comment, though obviously it skirted sensitive territory.
Obviously, as a society we want to ensure all citizens are safe and that we all adhere to the social compact. but that’s not how the world works in reality. While it’d be wonderful to leave precious possessions laying about in plain view unattended, the expectation that we should be able to do this without having them stolen is delusional. That’s why we lock our doors.
Women should also realize that the officer’s intent here was to protect them, not to blame them. Like many fathers, brothers, boyfriends and husbands, men worry a great deal about the safety of the women and girls in their lives. And we know that in a society as hyper-sexualized as ours, that avoiding unwanted attentions often times means applying a conservative approach to how we present ourselves.
Sadly the rhetoric and anger surrounding this discussion does a disservice to the police and to the law abiding citizens. I think it’s a shame generally that we can’t seem to appreciate the nuances of coping with the dangers in life.
Oh, the old comparison to the common sense of locking our door because things get stolen. There are so many things wrong with this analogy.
First, while leaving your doors unlocked makes it easier for someone to rob your house, dressing sexily does nothing to make it easier for someone to rape you. A woman in a long skirt is just as easy to force sex on than a woman in a short skirt, as is a woman in baggy jeans vs hot pants, as is a woman in a t-shirt vs a low-cut top. The clothes I wear do not make myself more or less able to defend against an assault, nor do they prevent me from taking other, more realistic safety precautions such as not being alone while out at night.
Second, all this rhetoric goes on the baseless assumption that the more attractively a woman dresses, the more likely it is a rapist will target her. This is simply not true. Rape is about power and is most often done when it is convenient, as most victims are raped by people they know or who already have some sort of power over them.
Third, everyone seems to be forgetting that sometimes women dress provocatively because the DO want to attract attention – of the consentual kind. Blaming the woman for wanting to look attractive is like blaming a store owner for having such nice and expensive things in his store, after the store is subject to an armed robbery. Clearly the owner should cover up and hide all the nice things so no one wants to steal them.
I completely agree. The part about clothes reminded me of the Italian judge who ruled in favor of the (alleged) rapist on the basis that women wearing jeans are physically impossible to rape.
People seem to like telling women not to dress in sexy clothes, not to get drunk. Wish they’d turn that righteousness to telling men not to rape people.
Are you suggesting that Hindu, Sikh and Muslim women never get raped? Sadly they do. And many of them face ridiculous cultural laws in which the rape must have been witnessed by several MEN who are willing to testify on their behalf or they can’t even report it! Also, a shocking number of seniors are raped every year. So the statement that women dressed “respectably” or women that are not considered “attractive” do not fall victim to sex crimes is seriously seriously flawed.
A while a woman who dresses up to go to a club may very well be there to pick up (just like the guys are) she still has the absolute right to decide who picks her up.
I’ve never heard or read of Sikhs or Hindus having a law where male witnesses must have witnessed the rape to testify on behalf of the victim.
FYI I am a Sikh and have lived for years at a time in Canada, India and the UK.
Actually in most western countries convicting a man of rape is difficult-this is reflected in the conviction rate for rape cases (Google it). So to suggest Sikh, Hindu and Muslim rape laws are so woefully inadequate compared to Canadian ones is unfair.
And a women has the right, but how would she enforce it? This is an issue of ideals versus reality and the reality is men are physically stronger than women.
Regardless of if you take self defense classes-9 times out of ten an average grown man could rape a women if he was so inclined.
Its always smarter to avoid attracting unwanted attention anyway.
I’m not saying women don’t have the right to dress how they wish or to dress attractively because after all most men enjoy seeing a beautiful women. But women should exercise common sense too!
I think women need to realize that although the sexes are equal, that does not mean we are the same.
You’re basically saying that you do agree that women shouldn’t dress provocatively.
Come on no one respects a women who picks random guys up at clubs or anywhere else.
I don’t understand why some women don’t respect themselves more. Is it because your trying to emulate some men? Or is that just an excuse-I hear it sometimes ‘men sleep around and they are considered studs so why are women called sluts when they do the same?’ Well thats just a highly reductive and generalized statement that just comes as extremely stupid and not what most sensible people would expect from a university educated women!
Because believe me we are not all promiscuous.
This reflects a bigger problem with our generation we don’t value ourselves enough. Society is way too hyper sexualized (as someone else commented).
Anyway students should spend more time studying and less time messing around at clubs and dressing sexy. Where are your priorities?
FYI-
Please don’t make baseless ignorant generalizations. I am a self-identifying slut, and plenty of people respect me completely. Because many people are not sex-negative fuckwads.
I like to have sex with people I like. It’s enjoyable, fun, good exercise, and generally makes my life more awesome. I am safe, use multiple birth control methods, and get tested regularly. How, exactly am I not respecting myself? I am doing what I choose when I choose with people I choose. I empower myself in my own sexuality rather than letting any societal construct dictate my actions.
However, the most important thing here is that I CONSENT. No matter what the context, no matter what I’m wearing, who I’m with, where I am, I expect everyone to establish consent before having sex with me. I might be dressed sexily because I’m looking for sex, or not, but the way I dress NEVER implies that just anyone can have sex with me without consent. Nor does the way I dress render anyone incapable of making decisions for themselves about whether to rape me.
You are right about one thing and that is our society is hyper-sexualized, but only in that it glorifies sex WITHOUT putting the equal necessary effort into promoting consent work and sex-positivity. We make sex tantalizing without making it empowering. But we need to empower ourselves in our sexuality, not by slut-shaming, but by encouraging everyone to make intelligent, informed, consentual decisions about sex.
Also, in all my sluttitude, I got all A’s and B’s all four years at university. Explain to me what those exactly have to do with each other?
How dare you suggest that a woman leading a sexual life on her terms doesn’t respect herself.
“a women”
what
“a university educated women”
what
“is way too hyper sexualized”
redundant phrasing
Quit school; Marry soon; Let party girls party. You give yourself too much credit and respect, and others too little.
Thank you for replying and yes very well said! It’s sad that there is still such ignorance like that out there…
…and oh it is Brittaney i agree with if that was unclear.
Sexual assault has nothing to do withthe way the victim is dressed but the sickness of the rapists mind! 80 year old women and little girls get assaulted too! dont make excuses for these sick bastards!
The problem is that this is being made into a women’s rights issue when it is broader than that. For example, I should be able to walk through Regent Park at 3 AM carrying a clear briefcase filled with cash, but I wouldn’t because it would greatly increase the odds of attracting trouble. This is an exaggerated example, but the point is valid. Women should be able to dress as they please and go where they please, when they please, but there are people with no respect for the law or other people. The common sense solution is to avoid drawing their attention. It doesn’t make it right, but too many people are in here arguing that women should be able to dress as they please and not be sex objects, when no one actually disagrees with that.
The cop chose a poor word, and everyone has keyed in on that word, but his point is valid. You should be able to dress as you please, but in an area where there is a history of sexual predation, you have to adapt and take precautions. The vast majority of men who respect the law and the rights of women are not your issue here.
You are one of the biggest idiot douchebags I have ever read but I guess thats the downfall of the internet, you have to read the opinions of people who think they actually know something about a highly complex topic- that of gender, misogyny and politics. Get educated before you open your mouth. You seem to know nothing about which you are speaking of and you look like a fool. I HATE people like you.
You discredit your own argument as lacking intelligence by engaging in ad hominim attack. Your comment adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.
I agree with and am delighted at your rage and indignation — but I have to interject at “downfall of the internet.” Such a phrase suggests that the internet was ever “up” to begin with; i.e. that it was ever used as an outlet for anything more than toxic opinions amplified by anonymity, moronic acronym-and-emoticon-based “conversation,” and porn. Sorry for interrupting, thanks for listening.
Wow. Way to go buddy. Misogyny and racism at it’s best/worst, right there. Do you really think that rapists care what a woman is wearing? Women who are dressed conservatively get raped, too. The only thing a woman can do to avoid being raped is to not get raped. Seriously, next time, educate yourself before you decide to put your two cents in.
I was raped while wearing an ankle-length dress with a high neck and long sleeves. I had NOTHING showing. The only person responsible for rape is the RAPIST. PERIOD. Rape is not about sexual attraction, it’s about power and hatred of women. Educate yourself before you open your mouth.
Bullying and murder are about power and control, rape is about satiating one’s lust for sex. Power and control over the victim just happens to be the method used to satiate said lust. Have you ever heard of a rapist raping someone he couldn’t overpower? That NEVER happens.
You don’t have to dress provocatively to be raped, but rape is one of only three ways to satiate sexual lust. The remaining two methods are consensual sex, and masturbation. If you can think of a fourth method, please, let me know so that I will know too.
Joe, please tell me you’re being sarcastic.
How is it that you profess to know so much about the underlying causes of rape? Should I assume that you’ve being researching rape statistics and studying the psychology of rapists for the last 20 years?
Or have you raped before? Did you commit such a horrible crime just so you could get off? Because to be honest, I don’t know a single man or woman who would rape someone, who would put another human being through the terrible hell of sexual assault and rape, just so they could get laid.
And to anyone on this post who DARES to suggest that women are raped because of what they’re wearing, how they’re acting, if they’re flirting or not, or if they’re “asking for it,” then how do you explain that 1 in every 3 women in the US army is raped?
For more information: http://www.stopmilitaryrape.org/
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2010/01/26/13rd-of-women-in-us-military-raped/
My apologies. I tried to find Canadian statistics, but to no avail. Instead, I have an anecdote. A friend of mine just came back from doing a tour in Afghanistan (she’s Canadian Forces). One day, her commanding officers had a meeting with all the females in camp. They gave the women a little whistle, and told the women that if they were ever attacked by a man, to blow the whistle for help. A f&%ing whistle? Really? Canadian Forces can’t do better and maybe find ways to deter potential perpetrators?
But you don’t need a Phd to figure the reasoning behind a statement such as ‘dressing a little less provocative’.
You are a women and as such you will never understand how men think irrespective of how much education you have-its experience versus sitting in an ivory tower. Some men are nice as pie, where as some may appear nice on the outside and yet be very evil minded on the inside (e.g. Ted Bundy).
In war a lot of the rules in civilian peace time society are thrown out-this happens regardless of the Geneva Convention and is a sad reality.
I think we seriously need to bring women down to earth-you are not the same as men (yes, you are of course equal I’m not disputing that!). Men can be brutal towards one another-how the hell do you think you will stand up to that? (Unless you are some sort of Martial Arts expert).
The fact that someone would call this “Fair Game” is sickening.
A woman has the right to dress however she chooses. Whether she chooses to show skin, or cover herself should not affect the fact that any sexual assault is fully the responsibility of the perpetrator.
It seems to be a typical defense response to call a woman a whore or to imply that she was “asking for it”.
This post says that “of course the men are responsible”, yet it is said that by choosing unrevealing clothing then a woman is less likely to be assaulted, putting responsibility in the hands of the victim.
I guess I’d better start wearing a parka at all times so that no men will see my body and be driven into a sexual frenzy… don’t want to get myself attacked or anything…
It’s a shame that people still hold these misogynist ideas in Canada in 2011, you’d think we’d be past this.
What a disgusting and misogynistic human being you are. It is people like you and comments like the one you’ve made that have created and sustained a patriarchal rape culture. As a Muslim woman who is a survivor of rape, I can tell you that having your body covered has NOTHING to do with why sexual violence occurs. Sexual violence is about POWER AND CONTROL, not the clothes you wear, and not about being “eye candy”. The comments that you and the police officer have ignorantly made do nothing except re-victimize and re-traumatize victims of sexual violence, and do NOTHING to put blame or punishment upon the individuals who perpetrate such monstrous crimes. Please get yourself a REAL EDUCATION while you are at York, and never make such hateful, disgusting, shameful comments about women who have survived sexual violence again. I am disgusted to go to school with a human being as deplorable as you. May you NEVER have to feel like a survivor of sexual violence and be blamed for the lifelong trauma and horror you experience.
Anecdote is not an appropriate means to determine if fully covered women experience less sexual assault than sluts.
It does prove one instance of its occurrence on a fully covered woman, however, which is more than some are willing to admit is a possible situation. In addition, you have proffered no valid research demonstrating the contrary, instead hoping that your simplistic refutation of an assertion will lead others to believe that its opposite is true.
Fair Game, you are completely right. In the history of the world, a hindu/sikh/muslim woman has NEVER EVER been raped. Women, if you don’t want to get raped, stop being “eyecandy” to men. You should always think of possible rapists while getting dressed and going outside. In fact, why do women even bother going outside? Sure, you could dress conservatively to ward off rapist, but you might accidentally smile seductively or brush your hand against your breast- things that will lure the rapist and force him to rape you.
I’m actually confused why a woman is Assistant Dean of the JD program. Are they even allowed to vote??
Marry me…
A women has a right to wear whatever she wants without fearing sexual assault. Are you actually suggesting that before leaving her house a women is supposed to consider if she looks like an “eye candy” to some sociopath or a pervert with no self restraint? You should be deeply ashamed of yourself, especially for putting the word “freedoms” together with the garbage you wrote.
So by your reasoning their are no rape victims in muslim countries that force women to cover themselves from head to toe. What planet are you from, because you surely aren’t from this one.
What?! What’s like saying that children who have suffered from sexual assault deserve it. Not all victims of sexual assault dress like sluts, and telling girls not to as a step of sexual assault is bound to make victims uncomfortable. Victim =/= enabler in most cases like this.
If your mom was sexually assaulted, do you think you would say “well, were you dressed like a slut, mom?” Or do you think it’d maybe be best just to assign the blame where it belongs (hint: not with the victim) and be supportive.
“Not all victims of sexual assault dress like sluts”
you suck just as much as the person you are replying to .
It is abominable that someone would ever have this opinion, as it is exactly this type of ignorance and misogyny that breeds the sense of entitlement which feeds behaviors such as sexual assault. Rape is a war crime; not because a whole village, city, or country is filled with women who are ‘asking for it’ by dressing provocatively, but rather, because rape is about POWER. Even more disgusting is the fact that you seem to think that women who dress in a way that covers their bodies don’t get raped. Rape is one of the many things a man can use to wield his physical power over a woman (and a man or a child, by the way), so in case you missed the last fifty years, women are people now too. Idiot.
its not just females that can be raped. I was raped as far as the topic im sorry i have to agree with something 9 times out of 10 it is the women that dress provocative that males rape. It does make me sick to my stumach that this happens though. i do have a heart. I know 3 females that have been raped and one mail that was raped and thats me.
And you didn’t deserve it, even though you’re an asshole. Were you dressed like a slut? That doesn’t make it your fault.
Amen sister or brother! Thank you “Winter”!
I just want to add that thinking the way “Fair Game” does is still universal amongst many societies. I was teaching English in Japan in 2001. We threw a party for one of my roommates. That night a foreigner attending the party slipped me the date rape drug. Even though, I’m pretty sure that I wasn’t actually rapped per se he did have his way with me. I remember bits and pieces. He by the way was a fellow English teacher and not a Japanese citizen. I did end up reporting the crime at the hospital and little did I know, police then become automatically involved. The reason I bring this up is that amongst all the stuff I was going through at the time, the police while investigated made me find the clothes that I was wearing at the party that night. At the time, and for a moment the act of photographing my clothes made me feel like I had asked for it. Now of course I know better. Making women feel like it is their fault due to their dress really does re-victimize the victim.
Actually, the statistics show that a woman’s appearance and pattern of dress have absolutely NOTHING to do with her risk of being sexually assaulted by a male. Muslim women DO get sexually assaulted. Older women DO get sexually assaulted. Little girls DO get sexually assaulted. Moreover, the majority of male-perpetrated sexual assaults against women take place in the HOME. I can wear baggy sweat pants on the street AND in the home, and statistically, it will do absolutely nothing to ‘protect’ me. Perpetrators are responsible for choosing violence. Believing otherwise is sexist ignorance.
So Fair Game:
Let me get this straight… what you’re saying is that:
a. Hindu, Sikh, and Muslim women (which by the way, all of whom apparently dress “traditionally”) do not get raped because they are covered up.
b. Only hot girls get raped. No one else gets sexually assaulted.
I would normally suggest that someone as ignorant as you pick up a book or a newspaper, but I’m not sure that even that could save you. I would site some statistics about the sadly high number of women that get raped in all different countries of all different religions and demographics, or even explain to you that a woman has the right to dress how she wants without being sexually assaulted, no matter how provocative it is, or even question what a slippery slope your argument is– next you’ll be saying that if a woman has a drink or two, she’s also “asking” to be raped. But it’s not worth my breath. If you truly believe a woman who shows some skin is apparently “fair game” for sexual assault, as you put so repulsively in your pathetic attempt to be clever, you are ignorant beyond repair. Making excuses for those who would sexually assault innocent women, no matter how they are dressed, is lower than low.
As if infants, the elderly, and women in proper hijab aren’t raped every day.
Nice work, Mr. Troll.
You’re a pig. Sexual assault should never be the storm cloud that hangs over the heads of pretty or beautiful women. Some women can’t “ugly” themselves up to avoid being jumped by a pig. JUST DON’T DO IT! No matter what a victim, especially a woman, looks like.
That’s not true. You can be wearing jeans and t-shirt with nothing revealing and you could still be a victim. If the community start thinking that victims are usually “sluts” as you put… the victim (who is already going through hell for what has happened to her) will start thinking that she is disgusting and blame herself for what happened.
There are people out there that think the victim was probably dressed “slutty” and got what they deserve. It’s those kind of thinking that make victims try to hide what happened because THEY will be viewed as “disgusting” by the community and NOT the perpetrator.
Please understand that it is NOT the victim’s fault. No matter how they are dressed. Why should the victim get condemned by the society for being a victim? Is it their fault? They dressed to impress not to imply that they want to be sexually harassed.
Truly an idiotic comment. There is absolutely no excuse for rape and what a woman is wearing is nobody elses business. Muslim and Sikh women are raped regardless of dress. It’s not a question of clothing but of mens attitudes, such as the one you voiced. Is there a set of conditions that makes it justifiable to violate a persons physical autonomy? The comment has a very wide range of implications and all of them are negative towards women and victims of crime. There is always an excuse by the perpetrators to try to justify their actions.
I think If you were to dress less like a ‘slut’ you might actually decrease your chances at getting raped. How hard is that for you feminazis to understand?
See my response to Fair Game. It applies to you as well.
@Feminism stinks, Sometimes, people have a hard time understanding things that don’t make sense. Let me educate you:
Utah State University Sexual Assault and Anti Violence Information:
Myth: Rape victims provoke the attach by wearing provocative clothing.
A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only
4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part
of the victim. In murder cases 22% involved such behavior (as simple
as a glance).
Most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing.
Victims range in age from days old to those in their nineties,
hardly provocative dressers.
Utah State University
http://www.usu.edu/saavi/pdf/myths_facts.pdf
I fail to see how not wanting to blame victims for the actions of the perpetrator of a crime, when statistics don’t suggest that “not dressing like a slut” helps, makes one a “feminazi.”
I’m pretty sure my niece could never force someone to assault her, so I guess I must be a feminazi.
I read in the news about elderly women who got repeatedly sexually assaulted by the same perpetrator who would break into the home in the middle of the night.
Yea, shame on those sexy grannies who are seducing men into committing rape!
@Feminismstinks: please do the world a favor and REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THIS PLANET IN THE FASTEST POSSIBLE WAY! may I recommend walking off a bridge?
Firstly, women are raped regardless of what they’re wearing. Secondly, stop placing blame onto women. No one WANTS to get raped. Wearing a certain outfit is not an invitation to rape me. Fuck off.
i agree that it would help however is not a solution and proper security would go a lot farther then longer hem lines.
are you ill ? who doesn’t know that rape has nothing to do with sex, it’s about power and humiliation. are you saying that women who don’t dress like “sluts” never get raped ? or women that people may not deem “attractive” ? did you know that 45% of rape victims were assaulted by their partners, compaired to only 8% who were assaulted by strangers ? this makes it hard for me to think that women are raped because of the way they dress.
you said yourself that images of half naked women are used to sell products and this is half the problem. society objectifies women into nothing more than sex objects WHEREEVER YOU LOOK. and opinions like this do not make it any better.
o_0
And what exactly does “getting treated like a slut” mean to you? Getting raped? Sorry to point out the obvious, but even sluts aren’t out to get raped, they are out to have consensual sex. A man is not some kind of wild animal species that can’t control its urges when it sees a short skirt. Also, rape is usually not about “eye candy” but about asserting power over the victim. And victims are often not “slutty”-looking girls, they can be anyone from your daughter to your grandmother. Your comment is ridiculously asinine and ignorant. Hope nobody you care about ever gets attacked.
You do know that women in traditional clothing get raped all the time, right? The more “traditional” a society, the higher its incident of rape (including marital rape), and IN ADDITION to the higher incidents of rape these women are actively discouraged from seeking justice. You have a serious problem. How about teaching men NOT to RAPE. Dick.
In the immortal words of Antoine Dodson, “You are so dumb. You are really dumb. For real.”
Other commenters have eloquently covered all the reasons why you are so dumb. That is all.
Oh I love that song!!!
and it certainly applies to all rapists and rapist supporters!
Oh, of course you are right.
And, if you are robbed, it is your fault because you shouldn’t have bought stuff that someone might want. If you are carjacked, it is your fault because you shouldn’t have bought a car. If any other crime happens to you, it must be your fault for having something the criminal might want.
This all makes perfect sense.
Well Fair Game is completely right. I mean Hindu, Sikh or Muslim women are never raped. Western women only started showing more skin around the 1920′s and that’s right about the time that women started being raped. Coincidence? I think not. Thinking back to when I was raped at 17, I was wearing jeans and a long sleeved sweater. Must of been asking for it right? If only I’d had a burka on to clearly indicate that I wasn’t interested in being held down and raped. I never told anyone about it because I felt like it was somehow my fault. I felt ashamed. I shouldn’t of let myself be in that situation. The comments made by Fair Game and the officer are the reason so many women never come forward when sexually assaulted. That officer should be fired. Fair Game, if you have any females close to you, try talking to them, chances are one of them has been sexually assaulted. Ask your mother, your sister or friend if they were asking for it when it happened to them. Or then again, maybe you don’t have many females in your life that you’re close to. Wouldn’t that be a shock.
You’re an idiot. Men walk around showing skin all the time, no shirts, for example. What is a “slut”? Aren’t men the definition of the word? Also, you may want to look up rape victims–they are the elderly, they are the two year olds, they are the nine-year-old male, they are in prison. Get an education.
You do realize that Middle Eastern women who wear veils, abayas and burqas are also victims of rape? In fact, victims of rape in Middle Eastern countries are subject to public lashings and honor killings because they “shamed” their family by being the victim of a crime.
Rape isn’t about sex, it’s about controlling and humiliating another person. Men can be raped too, so can children and elderly women. What would you attribute that to? Slutty looking 5 year olds? Please.
I feel sorry for anyone you know personally that is a survivor, because clearly you have no idea about the true psychological motivations of rape.
@Fair Game, Rapists will rape people regardless of what they are wearing. No one asks or deserves to be raped. The only people responsible for rape are rapists and rape apologists like you.
considering the fact that the overwhelming majority of sexual assaults are committed by someone the victim knows (relative, friend, date etc.) I’m certain that when “they” chose their victim, it likely was not at random and probably had nothing to do with how she was dressed.
in fact, dressing in a manner that exudes (and requires) confidence would probably deter a man from assaulting them.
nothing a woman says, wears or does warrants being sexually assaulted. it is a act of power and control that is perpetrated by someone who has neither. it is a demeaning and shattering experience that no one asks for. and if you think for one moment, Fair Game, that Sikh, Muslim or Hindu women do not experience this kind of torture, you need to put down your excalibur and pick up a G and M.
wow. check your privilege, asshole.
http://sap.mit.edu/content/pdf/male_privilege.pdf
the definition of “slut” is so loose that it can apply to a woman who has had multiple sex partners, and to a 14 year old girl in a short skirt.
what the crappy thing is, women are judged on EVERY ASPECT OF THEIR PERSONALITIES. a woman is not a slut for enjoying sex or wearing revealing clothing that is not always worn to attract others, but to make the woman feel good.
rape and sexual assault are ALWAYS initiated by the presence of a rapist. the woman (and sometimes men are raped too! think about that!) is NEVER asking for unwanted sexual advances.
you sir, can fuck off.
Even though I didn’t have sex (of any kind) until I was 19, I was labeled a slut in middle school just for having large breasts, which were always covered by baggy t-shirts.
I totally agree with you on this one, girls who want to dress in a certain “sluttish” way, they have to pay for the consequences. 5/5!
“The way a woman dresses or acts does not cause or prevent sexual assault; an attacker rapes someone because they want to exert power and control over him or her. The attacker is solely responsible for the crime. However, this responsibility is lost in translation through the police, the courts and the media.”
from: Don’t Rape (http://www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/3497)
Curl up and die please. You’ll do everyone a favour.
Since when is the onus on women to make men behave like gentlemen? If you can’t keep your pants zipped, YOU have the problem, not the victims!!
Rape is more often than not, an act of dominance. Sociopathic individuals will commit rape to assert dominance and inflict harm on an individual because that aspect is sexually arousing to them; they do not usually rape someone based on how that person is dressed. On the contrary, rapists generally look for someone who has low self-esteem (no confident, sexy outfit?) and may not put up much of a fight.
Yeah only the issue is the disgusting and unacceptable crime of the perpetrator, not their sexual preference. Implying that a woman is somehow deserving of sexual assault because of what she wears implies that the crime AGAINST LAW of sexually assaulting someone can be justified. Any grown man that is rational and worth a trial can presumably control his sexual inclinations around a girl in revealing clothing.
Fair Game is a troll.
To call yourself “Fair Game” is hypocritical and disgusting. I am appalled by your comments. Clearly, what you said is a reflection of what and how much you know about our society. First of all, sexual violence has NOTHING to do with sex. It is about POWER, HATRED AND VIOLENCE against another human being. Second of all, to say “wouldn’t choose a Hindu, Sikh or a Muslim because they are covered in traditional clothing” is an absolute horrible thing to say. Fair Game, go educate yourself about violence and please keep your comments about our society problems to yourself. Clearly you have a long way to go in increasing your knowledge about something as serious as this.
To call yourself “Fair Game” is hypocritical and disgusting. I am appalled by your comments. Clearly, what you said is a reflection of what and how much you know about our society. First of all, sexual violence has NOTHING to do with sex. It is about POWER, HATRED AND VIOLENCE against another human being. Second of all, to say “wouldn’t choose a Hindu, Sikh or a Muslim because they are covered in traditional clothing” is an absolute horrible thing to say. Fair Game, go educate yourself about violence and please keep your comments about our society problems to yourself. Clearly you have a long way to go in increasing your knowledge about something as serious as this.
It’s sad to know that there are people out there that concludes that women who dresses provocatively are “asking” for this type of crime to happen to them. One does not have to dress like a “slut” in order to be raped. The responsibility lies in the fact that our society needs to educate people of all cultures about violence. It is disappointing that a police officer, someone whom you think that will serve and protect you and your city would lower himself to a comment like that.
Stupid troglodyte!
Some years ago I was raped by a man I considered to be one of my closest friends, in my own home, while clad in a decidedly unsexy sweatsuit and bunny slippers. The only thing making me attractive to the bastard was my gender, my trust and my availability.
hey so if I think you’re dressed like a douchebag I should get to beat you up, right? After all, it’s YOUR fault for asking for it! You’ve got the face and clothing of a douche just begging to get beat up!
first of all, you’re disgusting. Secondly if you dress in a way that I decide is “slutty” I suppose you’d be okay with it if I violently destroyed you too. I dress how I want to because it makes me happy, I shouldnt have to hide myself because people like you can’t control yourself. I hope you never have to experience the horrors of rape but if you do maybe you’d finally shut the hell up
Hey, little boys get raped by priests. INFANTS get raped by sick men. Hell, animals get raped by sickos. I guess they ALL asked for it.
How dare that cute baby wear nothing but a diaper? I guess it’s rape time!
DON’T APOLOGIZE FOR RAPISTS! the only one at fault is the rapist!!!
You’re a troll. Wise up, people.
your comment made me so angry!
so i guess that its your fault if i (fill in the blanks) you!
you have some serious problems…
You’re absolutely right. Because no woman wearing a burqa has ever been sexually assaulted.
Fair Game: I know I shouldn’t feed the trolls here (read: you) but I’m going to anyway because I have nothing better to do.
A) What does it mean to “dress like a slut?” Is it the showing of skin that makes you think she must have too much sex (which is what I assume you mean by “slut,” a woman who has more sex than you deem appropriate)? Or is it the too-much-sex issue itself?
B) Calling a woman a slut is silly, because what constitutes a slut varies depending on the perspective of the person doing the slut-shaming, but worse than silly, it’s a means of silencing the legitimate concerns of women. Women are called sluts for what they wear (even if they’re virgins,) they’re called sluts if they have monogamous sex with one partner (if they’re the wrong person,) they’re called sluts if they have the audacity to have had multiple partners BY CHOICE. None of these things make it ok for that person to be raped. Women aren’t “asking” to be raped if they dress in revealing clothing.
C)Hindu, Sikh, and Muslim women, along with women of every ethnicity and religion around the world are raped daily, regardless of what they wear. One reason this is allowed to continue is because of the prevailing views that rape is the fault of the victim and not of the rapist. When a woman gets raped, every sexual experience she’s ever had, her clothing, whether or not she chose to imbibe that evening, and whether or not she chose to go somewhere alone, are all dragged up and used against her. None of these things have any bearing on her rape- whoever she chose to have sex with in the past has no bearing on this rapist. As a matter of fact, whether she’s had consensual sex with the rapist in the past has no bearing- anybody has a right at any time, regardless of sexual history, to not give consent to engage in sexual activity, and the only one to blame for the ensuing rape is the rapist.
You’re right. about the last part. it’s the perpetrator who is at fault, not the woman. it’s not the woman’s fault the perpetrator is a raging sociopath.
what an incredible double standard. society love women that dress like “sluts.” we see it everywhere, from movies to commercials to ads, all to appeal to the male gaze. but it’s immediately jumped to as an excuse for rape.
not to mention, a very small percentage of rape is the “stranger in the bushes on the wrong side of town at night.” Most rapes happen in the victim’s or rapist’s home and they almost always know eachother.
you’re an idiot.
Attitudes like this do nothing to dispel the problem. Women (and men and transgender folk) of all ages, ethnic backgrounds, nationalities, levels of intelligence, and physicalities experience rape. Research has largely indicted that rapists are not necessarily attacking others due to an insatiable sex drive, but because it’s a way to exert control. Instead of victim-blaming, perhaps we should focus our energies into educating people to not become rapists. I, for one, feel that the officer’s suggestion only perpetuates the attitude that it’s up to the potential victims to avoid getting raped, rather than that it’s a person’s responsibility not to rape.
In no way is a woman responsible to dressing to deter rape. This is nothing but victim blaming and as a social worker who worked with victims of sexual assualt I can assure you that the women who are assaulted are of all shapes/sizes and appearances. It has little to do with sex and more to do with power and control of another person.
Women get raped often in more nylon countries where the burkas or niquabs are mandatory so your assumption is inherently wrong.
While I agree with your views about the current objectification of women in our society, I completely disagree that the way in which she dresses means that she is a justified target of sexual assault. I’m sorry, but no.
A woman has the absolute, undeniable right to walk down the streets of Toronto completely naked without having someone assault them. A woman has the right to walk around dressed head-to-toe in full snow gear without being sexually assaulted.
Point is, no matter what a woman is wearing, now matter how much or how little she is wearing, she has a right to not be sexually assaulted.
Perhaps she invites people to treat her with a certain attitude (ie. treat her like a slut) if she dresses in such a fashion, but in NO WAY is that an excuse for her to be violated. No way, no how.
I was raped when I was asleep in my bed, where I SHOULD have had every reason to feel safe. Obviously you don’t know shit about this subject, women in every manner of clothing and every situation get raped. It doesn’t matter what you where you where you are, the rapist is the one who did wrong.
Actually there’s nothing to prove that. Most rapists know their victim. What she chooses to wear on any given night has nothing to do with the attack. In fact, some rapists will even target women who dress more conservatively. Women in burkas are raped all the time. As are women in long skirts, fatigues, jumpsuits, ballroom dresses, shorts, pajamas ratty bathrobes and curlers. Furthermore, the term “slutty” can mean different things. To some people it means nothing but boots and to others it means visible wrists. Telling a group of women that they can avoid rape by not dressing slutty even aside from the fact that it’s a huge insult doesn’t add anything constructive. There is nothing a woman can wear that wouldn’t be considered provocative by someone. Responsibility needs to be shouldered by those responsible. A victim of rape is not a slut. They are a victim.
Fair Game, I know rape is scary and not something you want to face, but it’s cowardly to blame the victim. And if a guy really can’t get any without raping or can’t control his impulses, then he probably is not mentally equipped to be having sex in the first place. That’s his problem. It’s not the victim’s fault and I think it’s a little weird that you would side with such a loser.
Sorry, Fair Game, sexual assault is not a crime of passion, but one of violence. Read the research; all types of women, including fully covered women and women in their 80′s are assaulted on a regular basis. Stop trying to blame the victim.
I agree. These canadian women are dressing too much vulgar. In india, women are more traditional and we do not have such things. but here i seeing many women dressing like sluts (not that i am wanting to complain). at school, indian girls are dressed conservative and theyr not experience rape but other girls who dressing vulgar and showing body are teasing people. police man said a good point in my opinion.
Can you explain why old women in nursing homes have been raped by male nurses?
Or why children are raped?
I seriously doubt elderly women or children “dress like sluts”. And saying Hindu,Sikh and Muslim women wouldn’t be raped? Please explain why thousands Hindu and Muslim women who actually *report* being raped to authorities never receive any justice?
I guess those ladies traditional clothing was just too….ah, traditional? And that is why they were raped?
I guess I’m just too much of an ignorant woman to understand any of this.
I am deeply disturbed by this line of thinking. By your point of view, I (a human being, as well as a woman) should be blamed for the choices and actions of others whom I have absolutely no control over, because of how much fabric is covering my body! Does this not seem outrageous to say the least? If you were to leave your house carrying a wallet and there is some indication that that wallet is presently on your body, does that give someone the right to steal it? If someone were to tell you that it’s not the pickpocket’s fault, because you enticed him by taking the wallet out of your pocket to pay for whatever it is you buy, would that be acceptable by your standards?
This makes me sick to my stomach. Men are not treated in this fashion, so what in this world that you seem to live in gives you the right to judge women like this?
FYI: sexual assault is a crime of power, control and violence, not because the assailent is so turned on they have to sexually assault someone and people who observe religious conduct by covering themselves also are victims of sexual assault you are an ignorant person who has no idea what you’re talking about.
I am always amazed how victim blaming can be so one sided… Would you ever blame a victim of a hold-up? What about of a car-jacking? A break and enter? Of course not, it is patently absurd; however, if police officers have the ignorance to blame rape survivors then they should also hold these other groups partially responsible in motivating their own attacks:
Perhaps the man who is robbed for his rollex should be held accountable. He dared to ‘show-off the goods’ (ie: his material wealth) and so he should expect to be robbed… right?
What about the old lady driving the $100 00.00+ luxury vehicle? She deserves to be car-jacked. How could she drive around in a car like that and expect not to be car-jacked?
What about the nice couple who worked hard and bought their dream home? Should they be held accountable when they are victims of a home invasion or burglary?
If we take the same logic offered by this Toronto officer than it follows that he would recommend that all these other groups should avoid wearning expensive jewellery,driving nice cars, and owning nice homes in order to be less likely to be victims of robbery, car-jacking, and burglary. OF COURSE THIS IS ABSURD!!!! THESE EXAMPLES HIGHLIGHT THE IGNORANCE AND MISOGYNY INHERENT IN BLAMING VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT. USE YOUR BRAINS PEOPLE…
You are completely wrong, most rape victims are introverted, slightly desperate looking, who are alone, rapists dont go for confident people, they are scavengers that look for easy prey like cowards… only really charismatic sexual predetors/cereal killers go for pretty/slutty confident girls but they have a certain something they are looking for….
those cereal killers will Trix you, Corn Pop you in the kneecap, rob you of your Life, and all the witnesses will be able to say is “I didn’t get a good look at his face, he just shot the guy and Bran.”
I apologize to everyone who is nauseated by puns.
I was going to say “I hope you never have daughters” but I’m almost more scared of what you’d teach your sons!
Rape is not a compliment, you fucking asshole.
Fair Game, show me the statistic that proves Hindu, Sikh, and Muslim women “in their traditional clothing” are raped less than other women.
You show a lack of understanding of sexual assault and society in general. You express racist and sexist idealogies. The majority of rapists do not even remember what their victim was wearing. Your comments are uneducated and offensive to both men and women. You imply that men cannot control their minds and bodies, you demean women young and old. Women should not have to fear violence and degredation. Think of your mother, sister or daughter – if she walked down the street naked and was raped could you tell her to her face that she ‘deserved’ sexual violence? The only people who can stop rape are rapists. Nothing a human being wears, says or does justifies sexual assault.
You’re an idiot. By your logic if some pervert that’s into feet sees someone wearing open toed shoes he has the right to rape her? I don’t care if a woman is walking down the street naked, that doesn’t give anyone the right to sexually assault her. Just because *you* (or whoever) deems a woman a slut doesn’t make her so.
How DARE you, FairGame!
I was drugged, and gang-raped by 6 men I trusted. I WASN’T drinking alcohol, I WASN’T at a club/party, and I WASN’T “dressed like a slut”.
I was on a field trip, in front of a motel in the middle of the wilderness, at a bonfire. I was dressed in sweats and a sweatshirt. How does that scream: “Rape me! I’m slutty!” I’m not even that good looking, and I’m certainly not afraid to admit that! I’m not one of your Top Models, nor do I dress sexy.
I was raped because I’m an independent woman and I don’t conform or allow myself to be peer-pressured or manipulated into doing things. They saw me as a challenge, but knew my character enough to know that I would fight them, tooth and nail, if they tried anything. Which is why they drugged me. Made it easier for them to violate me.
You’re a misogynistic pig! I bet you hate women–which must mean you like men. If you like men that much, leave us women the hell alone and go back to that rock you’re living under. Sure, you’ll have to look for a little while, because it’s back in the Dark Ages.
While I agree that many women dress too provocatively, that has NOTHING to do with rape. I was definitely NOT “eye candy” when I was raped; I am overweight and dress to hide it! Some people are just sick, whether it is a man or a woman attempting the rape.
Hey fair game it is a womens god given right to dress how ever the fuck she pleases. What kind of man are you that you don’t like to see women in provacative clothing?
Not everything the police or the government feed you is right. Go on thinking that you fucking drone. OBEY, SLEEP, CONSUME, REPEAT. Follow those orders and you’l be a model citizen
Dear Fair Game,
What does it mean exactly to be ‘dressed like a slut’? Even if you were somehow able to come up with a clear cut definition, what gives you the right to determine it for the rest of society? Moreover, does getting ‘treated like a slut’ entail sexual assault – are you advocating that those who dress ‘like sluts’ ought to be sexually assaulted? This is absolutely unacceptable, and quite a dangerous comment; what’s next, telling women they shouldn’t wear high-heels because they will get sexually assaulted?
Furthermore, as Canadians, we all share this society – no matter what religion, gender, and race you are from. Surely, in the 21st century, we have all come to realize the importance of the freedoms and civil liberties we enjoy; to shoot them down, and argue – in your case – for something that is completely a matter of personal taste is not only appalling, but quite barbaric. I certainly agree that our society has problems, and you are correct in pointing out how the media portrays women in advertisements, and how sex appeal is used to sell goods in the market – but that is an entirely separate issue, for which sexual assault victims should NOT be blamed – It simply has nothing to do with them.
What could you possibly mean by ‘the evil terrorists’? Surely you are not implying that those who perpetrate sexual assault are terrorists; as wrong, and as guilty, as both activities are, they are simply not related. Please take care to understand the different terms, the motivations lying behind such activities, and the purposes for which they are conducted.
In addition, when an officer of the law – whose job it is to protect citizens, prevent crimes, and arrest criminals – is taking part in a safety information session, he is not representing his own person, personal values, nor his personal moral outlook on society; he is representing the Toronto Police Department. As such, his flagrantly misogynistic, sexist, and simply revolting opinions should be kept to himself, until such time that he is no longer representing a public security organization, whose aim is to protect individuals, not punish the victim of crimes.
Lastly, if you took care to read, and study about such phenomena, you would understand that they dynamic that underlies sexual assault is not at all similar to what you have described. Please take care to become more informed, because your utter arrogance and ignorance can only assume the role of a burden for a fine society such as our own.
rape is wrong. even if she dressed like a ‘slut’, a ‘slut’ is NOT asking for rape, she is asking for consensual sex (and to be paid for it).
It seems as if sluts don’t believe in personal responsibility. These poor cops have to deal with sluts who refuse to grow up: http://goo.gl/ODyno
Let’s address a few of your comments. Let’s pay attention to all victims not just the one’s you may secretly covet. Are you saying elderley woman are eye candy? Little boys are eye candy? In fact there is absolutely no correlation between rape/ molestation and what the victim is wearing! I have stats to back this up. Do you honestly belive Hindu, sikh & muslim women are not sexually abused?!! It’s just not reported because those women would be blamed & punished for it. In many middle eastern countries its legal for a man to rape his wife! Are you excusing a violent act & abuse of power? Is that not like saying his car deserved to be stolen because he drives a BMW? That house deserves to be broken into & robbed because they have a nice tv? Rape/molestation are NEVER the victims fault!! It doesn’t matter what they wear/drink, which family member/uncle/teacher the trust or where they walk/work! The criminal is crossing a line & violating someone else because they are selfish, immature, have no control, have no honor, have a corrupt religion etc. Perhaps what you’re saying is that if you’re to choose a victim you would go for eye candy? You threatened, frightened & are not able to handle sexy women as your equal so that would make perfect sense. (It’s often about control & power issues not about sex.) I may not agree with the use of women in advertising in N.America but I’m glad I am free to dress & express myself as I wish. My final thought: Sex should be enjoyable, sacred, spiritual, sensual, fun and CONSENTUAL for both partners. I hope for your partners sake that you at least come to accept that. Women have just as much right as men to find pleasure in their sexuality without fear or rape.
rape is a war tactic, all who take part in it are therefore barbarians. people were raping before there was such a thing as “dressing like a slut”-and hindu, sikh, and muslim women get raped every day. is you support rape-and you do, according to what you’ve written (no bs one-line disclaimer at the end can hide that, just as no burqa can hide a woman from a rapist) than you are a moron, and anyone who is not blatantly against rape is FOR the metaphorical rape of his own people (rape historically was inflicted upon women with full knowledge that to destroy an entire group, one must destroy the women which are the core).
Rape is not about being turned on, nor is it about pepsi. It is about inflicting power upon another human being. It has nothing to do with outfits that turn people on-if it did, than cops would be raped all the time.
“Fair Game”, I am a Hindu and grew up in Mumbai. I wore ‘decent’ Indian clothes – salwar kameezes, fully covered my arms, legs & the rest of my body – except my face. I was molested in public transport on a daily basis. Men would feel me up and stare & say lewd things.
I am not the only one who faced this on a daily basis. Every girl I know who grew up in India and stepped out of her home was harassed.
Will your next suggestion be to stay at home & avoid going out, if you’re a woman?
You’re an ignorant misogynist and a clueless privileged man who has never had to face the humiliation of being touched or treated inappropriately.
How about this phrase: “Men can avoid sexually assaulting women by not sexually assaulting women.”
@Fair Game, “You can avoid acting like a misogynistic neanderthal by not acting like a misogynistic neanderthal”.
LOL @ women getting sexually assaulted due to the way they dress. Nothing but ignorance and hate.
You’re right – women ask to be raped. WHAT AN IDIOT. It’s people like you who make it hard for victims to ever ask for help .
So why is it that men who walk around public parks bare chested, only shorts on aren’t asking to be “raped”?!
We are all human, In our country, in this day and age we still have a major double standard!!
Yeah, because women who dress in their traditional clothing never suffer violence from men, except for honour killings, and forced marriages to old men, and being executed in ‘traditional’ societies for being raped (because all they were was their cherry, so when you have garbage you might as well throw it away, right?) while their rapist(s) gets the lash. Of course no one commits incest where ‘traditional’ values rule. No one’s gay either. We’d know if anyone did or was because those societies are so frank and clear eyed about such things. Those societies are not founded on a retrograde and backward superstitious idiocy.
and this is without getting into all the prepubescent girls who get raped, the old ladies who get assaulted, often in their own homes…
no, its all about the sluts you miserable stupid arse.
There have been thousands of Muslim and Hindu women worldwide who have been raped.. covered or not. The amount of ignorance infused in your comment is the reason people give up on society. Do you really believe that only women showing skin get assaulted?
It’s people like you who have taught this officer and other impressionable public figures that it’s okay to generalize people like this. A whole lot of you seem to take offence when someone tells it how it is though, so I expect you to be pretty upset with me at the moment.
TROLLLLLLLL!
Get back under yer bridge where you belong!
Well put… I also want to add that the officer isn’t implying that they deserve to be victims… Or that the perp shouldn’t be punished… He is simply stating that in order to avoid putting yourself in a situation of risk… Tone it down a little…. ! Much as a zookeeper might advise that you don’t strap a steak to your body and enter the lion cage! Use your heads ladies….!
Several women who were fully clothed have been brutally raped you fuck wit.
Rape is about control not women dressing in “slutty” outifts.
What is your problem? women should be able to dress however they want? They do not dress like sluts for men to rape them.
And exactly, everyone dresses this way now, does that mean everyone deserves to be raped or assaulted?
When making such ignorant comments think of your mother, sisters, nieces, grandmothers, etc.
You sir are a dumbass.
Are you serious? I have dressed in very modest clothing all of my life. I thought not dressing provocatively and not going out at dark hours would leave me safe. Was I safe? NO! I still ended up being sexually assaulted.
I also completely agree with the cop. Matter of common sense, really.
You’re an idiot. My best friend was raped in her Marine Corps Mess uniform; she was covered in head to toe with her damned rank on her shoulder.
You owe every man on the planet an apology for being so insulting. Men are completely capable of controlling their sexuality. No real man needs to rape a woman because he thought her skirt was sexy. Sure women dress to attract mates ,as do men, it is not an invitation to take something that without consent. I’m sure you know that .
Here again we see institutional feminism confronting society in an obnoxious, spoiled brat kind of way. I can hear the truckload of DONTATE NOW buttons hitting the webistes — This is such a ridiculous joke — I can’t wait for Harper to cut all funding to this nonsensical educational directive that is womens studies et. al. – a more divisive topic has never been adopted by our school systems and I’m terrified for any young man who has to live under the police state that these feminist architects have implemented. Stop giving court to these nutbags who wake up every morning determined to be offended…
But it is that the victim is being blamed. Men who say that are just trying to pass the blame onto the victim- ‘Oh you wore a miniskirt well it’s your own dang fault then’. It’s pathetic. Most girls who are raped don’t dress like sluts. Rape is entirely the fault of the rapist. I mean, do people want girls to walk around all day dressed like nuns and never go out at night? We shouldn’t need to do that. Men should be able to control themselves. Men aren’t accused of ‘dressing like sluts’ when they wear short shorts and walk around with no shirt.
women of all shapes, sizes, colors, ages, and dress get sexually assaulted. men should learn to control their anger and learn to treat people with respect. the real problem is men who believe they have the right to take what ever they want from women when ever they want.